Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Since when is Revan capable of (specifically) Echani battle precognition just because the Handmaiden thinks he was based on what the echani elders said? She also goes on to say that Echani batlte precognition is so damn uber that certain elders can predict entire wars in advance. Clearly her stance is suspect, as is her information.
I see no conclusive evidence that Revan has it at all.
Registered: Nov 2005
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Right but there is no evidence that Ulic is more powerful either. After playing KOTOR 1, the game makes Revan seem uber powerful, as if he was the chosen one of his time.
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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Seminole Country, FL
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You base your whole argument on Ulic stalemating a weaker, not fullblown saber god/sith magician Kun? Come on.I would put Revan on a higher pedestal just for destroying Malak in the SF, than Ulic beating a weaker than godlike Kun
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Ulic stalemated an Exar that was beaten by Vodo.. He didn't stalemate godlike fighter Exar. Exar was good with the force back then nothing indicates he is a lightsaber god at that point...
Ulic stalemating Exar really doesn't mean all that much, if he would have stalemated the Exar that beat Vodo, now that would have been impressive. The exar he stalematted however does not put him above Revan.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Revan's kills:
- Mandalore (A nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Yusanis (Echani master, nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Bandon (Sith Lord apprentice, force sensitive. Circumstances unknown; possibly had help)
- Malak (Sith Lord, force sensitive. Battle described as "epic", but the actual details are unknown. Malak's actual power remains to be substantiated. At best, he can be placed above Dooku and below Bane.)
There's your sabergod.
Ulic pwned Cay, stalemated Exar Kun, pwned Mandalore in one hell of a scenario, and pwned some other ****er who's name I can't recall at this moment. I could get more, but again... I don't have any scans at work.
Ulic didn't pwn Cay, he defeated a Cay that didn't want to fight.
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Just look at that, throughout the entire fight that doesn't exactly last long all Cay does is beg Ulic to stop it and return to the lightside.
He stalemated an Exar Kun that wasn't an impressive lightsaber fighter there. Far weaker then he would become when he destroyed Vodo
Mandalore I agree with impressive fight.
And other people? all the people he killed where nobody's with guns and axes for the rest.. Or some people without a lightsaber...
Now I know logic isn't allowed to be used in debates about Revan anymore...
But logically we know that Revan and Mandalore fought in an honourable fight, because thats what Mandelorian tradition requires. Meaning Revan didn't use the force or a lightsaber but instead used a sword to defeat Mandalore.
Against Yusanis, an Echani wo fights in honourable combat, it would again be a very logical assumption supported by what the Handmaiden says to say that Revan and he fought in honourable combat.
Against Bandon, story wise Revan is the only powerful enough to defeat Bandon and the two people Bandon brings along to help are supposed to fight the two people Revan has with him. Thats what they are supposed to do, gameplay of course can create a different scenario.
Malak his actual power is indeed unknown for a large part, we do know he controlled the Star Forge, the same star forge that ate other weaker people, including people that used to be on the Jedi Council. He ruled over them too, was a ligthsaber prodigy and a fierce front line fighter during two wars. Malak has the experience over Ulic, and even Malak has shown more impressive use of force powers. Just less confirmed people he killed and fought.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Oh please. When it comes to Revan, you build assumptions on top of assumptions and call it logic and fact. He is an UNKNOWN. Admit this and move on. When KOTOR III comes out, then you can come back and we'll reevaluate this.
I like how you tack on "logically" to your opinion and it somehow is supposed to hold more weight. Fishy, no one says "Revan beat Mandalore in personal combat without using the force to aid him." They say that in the battle above Malachor V, Revan killed Mandalore. That's what they say. They didn't enter into a boxing ring and Revan hit the off switch on his force powers and defeated Mandalore fair and square. He killed him in WAR, and that was still honorable because the Mandalorians seek honorable death in war. Period.
No, it'd be an unsupported assumption to believe that Revan defeated Yusanis fairly and with ease on the word of Brianna alone. She wasn't present.
And keep in mind that the item description of Yusanis' blade describes the battle as "epic" while Brianna insists that he "slaughtered Yusanis where he stood". Which is more plausible given pure melee combat? Are we supposed to make the assumption that Revan trumps years of strict melee discipline without resorting to an unfair more or perhaps even outright being cheap? It's possible that he DID fight and win honorably, but there is nothing reliable to support this, and in the end Yusanis is a nonforce sensitive. Revan had the advantage before he even walked into the fight because he was a jedi.
Prove to me using actual evidence that only Revan could contend with Bandon. And don't give us your "logical" opinion on the battle as it is in game, okay?
Fishy, there is NO proof or evidence showing that there were Jedi Council force users trying to use the Star Forge and absolutely no proof as to how powerful they are even if they DID join the Sith, survive the war, and attempt to control the Star Forge. This is pure conjecture, with no evidence backing it. What you call "logical assumption" I call "wishful and unsupported thinking" and it's getting ridiculous.
No, Malak does not trump Ulic for sheer experience. Malak was barely a jedi knight when the Mandalorian Wars broke out. His force feats are at best on par with Count Dooku. And some jedi took his jaw off because he's just that good.
Face it, Fishy: Revan has no case. The KotOR people have no case. Accept it. Move on.
Well even I would have the energy to go through this all again, you'll just ignore it and throw it away saying its an assumption. Which it of course will always be with Revan thats just the way it works with in game characters. Especially if you don't trust quotes from the characters in game, in which case we could just as well doubt pretty much everything ever said and or done.
And actually Malak doesn't trump Ulic for experience? Where does Ulic have more experience then Malak? Please show me, I'd like to see it because its not there. Ulic also hasn't shown superior force powers to Malak.
and the fights Ulic has had are not impressive save for the one against Mandalore.
He stalemated an Exar Kun that wasn't an impressive lightsaber fighter there. Far weaker then he would become when he destroyed Vodo
Why wouldn't Ulic get any stronger after the fight? It's not like that point was the peak of Ulic's strength. And remember that Exar has become much stronger since he lost to Vodo by this point.
But logically we know that Revan and Mandalore fought in an honourable fight, because thats what Mandelorian tradition requires. Meaning Revan didn't use the force or a lightsaber but instead used a sword to defeat Mandalore.
What about the Mandalorian Champion? He believed that fighting a Jedi on the Jedi terms was more honorable then limiting the Jedi's fighting ability. I doubt purely sword combat was the case.
Against Yusanis, an Echani wo fights in honourable combat, it would again be a very logical assumption supported by what the Handmaiden says to say that Revan and he fought in honourable combat.
As with Mandalore, what qualifies as honorable combat?
Against Bandon, story wise Revan is the only powerful enough to defeat Bandon and the two people Bandon brings along to help are supposed to fight the two people Revan has with him. Thats what they are supposed to do, gameplay of course can create a different scenario.
It seems we are degenerating into feat wars. Bandon fought Revan in the same way that Revan fought Malak. It doesn't really show up another nich of Revan's skill the way Mandalore of Yusanis does.
Malak his actual power is indeed unknown for a large part, we do know he controlled the Star Forge, the same star forge that ate other weaker people, including people that used to be on the Jedi Council. He ruled over them too, was a ligthsaber prodigy and a fierce front line fighter during two wars. Malak has the experience over Ulic, and even Malak has shown more impressive use of force powers. Just less confirmed people he killed and fought.
What are these really impressive force powers from Malak? It all seemed like simple force lightning and pushing to me. All Malak really has over Ulic is experince, which we know isn't the end all factor.
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'm assuming this is Ulic Qel Droma we're talking bout, Fishy. He does have a lot of experience with other force users, and his skills were so good that even blocked from the force he was able to kill a jedi in melee combat.
Because there is no evidence of this, there is no evidence of Exar becoming stronger with a lightsaber either, he trained with the force.
all the Mandelorian champions think its more honorable to fight with a sword, however one or two do allow the Exile to choose the terms of the fight, the fact remains they find the sword to be the most honorable.
Honourable combat for an Echani is quite easy, fight without weaopns without the use of the force. Just fight..
How is defeating Bandon a feat war?
Well Nevermind I really don't want to get into this anyway, its the most logical conclusion but that isn't enough really..
And Malak has never shown really impressive force powers, still more impressive then the force powers Ulic has shown.
He did no such thing they fought and he was forced to retreat, he managed to fight a jedi without the force impressive.. But he did not defeat a Jedi, and many people without the force but with weapons training managed to fight Jedi..
He also just cut down Satal who didn't even have a weapon, and Satal would hardly qualify as a Dark Jedi compared to others. He was a weakling, he couldn't even match Aleema who was a weakling too.
It's funny how you overestimate Kun's feats and completely underestimate Revan's. You forgot to include Revan's battle in the star forge. He (with 2 others) was able to battle through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced droids. Remember how malak didn't even think the dark jedi had a chance, and believed that they would only slow him down. malak must have held him in pretty high regard - to think that he would be able to take out an entire fortress of dark jedi. And Malak was still underestimating him at this point, as he believed that revan would not have a chance against him, yet Revan still came out on top. Add to this that he soon regained all of his memories and would have likely improve a hell of a lot more. Ulic has no chance. His best accomplishment was beating Mandalore. Malak would annihilate Mandalore.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'm going to pretend like you didn't post that nonsense.
Indeed, I'm going to pretend like you don't exist. If you think that video game baddies are canon, you're a fool. By that logic, Jaden Korr is mightier than Revan because he fought dozens upon dozens of dark jedi per floor of Vjun.
Fishy, stop calling your arguments logic. You're assuming that Mandalore and Revan fought on Mandalore's terms. You're assuming that Yusanis and Revan fought on Yusanis' terms. You're assuming that Revan was the only one who could defeat Bandon. Stating that Exar's lightsaber skills didn't get any better after Ulic and Exar stalemated only makes Ulic seem better as Exar pwned Vodo in lightsaber combat.
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Like I said lets just drop those things, its a worthless debate that i'm to tired to do.
Exar did improve after fighting Ulic he improved a lot, he didn't improve his lightsaber skills between fighting Vodo and Ulic. In that time all he did was learn the force there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
Now Ulic was never really shown to improve at all, he stalemated an Exar that was knocked down by Vodo in a very short fight. I fail to see how that is impressive. Exar Kun became impressive with a lightsaber after that, he wasn't a lightsaber god while fighting Ulic.
Mar 4th, 2006 08:18 PM
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