That was in response for you proclaiming that Count Dooku was the greatest Sith Lord ever. He wasn't even close. Dooku was only a temporary-Sith, and a pawn. Palpatine, followed by Exar Kun and Darth Bane are the three of the greatest.
You can have your opinion, but that's all it amounts to. An opinion. Meanwhile, I have fact to support my claims - which supercedes your opinion. Therefore, it holds no bearing on the argument.
If Dooku had far more skill than Anakin, Anakin's raw strength wouldn't have saved him. Dooku had equal or less skill than Anakin. More experience, but that doesn't necessarily translate to actual skill.
No, Count Dooku is far from being weak, but he doesn't measure up to Anakin.
The script, commentary, movie, and Palpatine's own words do not support this claim. Anakin was simply more powerful than Count Dooku and bested him.
In terms of sheer lightsaber ability, yes, I'd put him on an equal footing with Yoda or Sidious.
In a fight? No, I'd wager that Yoda and Palpatine are the only ones who could overpower him. But that isn't because of their lightsaber ability alone, but simply a combination of the following:
- Force Powers: Both Palpatine and Yoda have superior Force-powers to Anakin, though he is by no means a slouch in this department.
- Force Mastery: This is one of the major ones. Yoda and Sidious have a dramatically superior control of the Force than Anakin. They seem to be able to use it easier and more efficiently - as well as more effectively.
- Psychological Superiority: Both Yoda and Palpatine are, on a psychological level, more stable than Anakin. This is what gave Kenobi his victory against him, and combine this with Yoda's wisdom and Palpatine's ability to manipulate - Anakin would play into their hands in a fight.
Anyone can have a preference for any character they so choose. I know that Janus used to have a preference for both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku, and used to argue with me about the both of them. I know that Sorgo used to have an extreme preference for both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku (especially) as well. I know that Traya (whom I think is Swirly Girl - I didn't think to ask) had (obviously) a preference for Traya.
I personally like Exar Kun, Palpatine, Yoda, and - dare I say it - General Grievous.
We all have our moments of bias. Rampant Ox's liking of Dooku, or idolizing him isn't a problem to me. My problem is that when he defies the script, the movies, and the commentary in favor of his character. That is defying canon and logic.
Other than that, it doesn't bother me a single bit.
I have been thinking about this and I have up with a new list on saber battle skill list on who is best and stuff. This is just from the movies and the last time we actualy see them fight in ROTS. Here it is. My new top 5
1. Mace Windu (Mace's battle with Palpatine was slow because both were actualy using their brains in that fight. This does not mean that Mace can not fight fast if needed to.)
2. Palpatine (Very close behind Mace.)
3. Yoda (He is very skilled but if he were suddenly cut off from the force he would have some trouble in a fight)
4. Obi-Wan/Anakin (What can I say. They are on equal footing on lightsaber skill.)
5. Dooku (As high as his skill was he had reached him limit. He could not get any better then what he was. Unfortunatly it was not high enough to defeat Anakin)
As for who the greatest Sith was. It was not Dooku. I can only think of 2 that could truely be called great.
Palpatine- He did manage to wipe out the almost every known Jedi. Not to mention realy fooled the Jedi and the entire republic. Then even after he was killed he managed to transport his spirit into a clone body which was no where near where he was killed.
Exar Kun- A large task force of Jedi and Republic troops were sent after him to take him down. Hmm a lot of people just for one person. Despite all that he was able to seal his spirit into that temple on Yavin 4.
__________________ Dark Jedi Master Jam-Jul Lison
Last edited by Jam-Jul_Lison on Jun 14th, 2006 at 04:10 AM
I do sometimes defy the script, GL etc. If I am truly wrong dont hesitate to tell me guys. However if it is your opinion against mine I will fight you to the bitter end!!!!
That is an overall list of skill. IMO Mace isnt better than the Count. However we can only use opinions seeing we havent seen them fight. I will accept that they are on par though. Anakin gets there through raw power (even though I hate the whiny prick!!!). He has alot of power and can easily duel with the best of them. He killed Dooku() and aided in the defeat of Mace. However this doesnt put him above Dooku/Mace seeing they didnt use force powers on him. In ROTS Dooku didnt use the force at all on Anakin and nor did Mace in the Chancellors office.
Greatest is partly subjective, but facts can still be applied to make one entity seem 'greater' than another. So going by the facts, it is illogical to think Dooku is as great as Sidious, taking into account the values that make a great sith lord.
How much has certain sith lord had under his control?
What is certain sith lords rank in the chain of command?
How much has certain sith lord furthered the goals of the dark side (eliminating the jedi)?
How powerful is certain sith lord?
The list could go on and on, and you will find that in nearly all values important to being a great sith lord... Sidious is the superior.
Mace's whole style Vaapad relies on the use of the force. Mace taps into the dark side a little bit. Just read Shatterpoint. I am not a big mace fan but I believe is the best with a lightsaber. As for Obi-Wan, we have all seen just how good he is. Considering he fight with anakin it is obvious that he is better then dooku. When Dooku was fighting obi-wan and anakin in ROTS he knew that Obi-Wan was better then him and could not beat them both together so he used the force to push obi-wan out of the fight. Dooku obviously thought that Obi-Wan was a bigger threat theat then Anakin. We all know that Anakin did not just beat him, he completly wooped his butt. Let's just face it. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are better then Dooku in ROTS.
No, you have it completely wrong. Because Anakin can beat Dooku and Kenobi can beat Anakin doesnt mean that Kenobi could beat Dooku. It is an A>B>C argument, and these usually dont work. It is proven that Dooku has wtf pwned Kenobi twice. And Dooku didnt take out Kenobi in ROTS because he was a bigger threat. It was because:
-Kenobi was the weak link
-Dooku wasnt there to kill Anakin, only turn him. Kenobi however was of no importance to Dooku.
-Taking out Kenobi would have helped anger Skywalker, which is exactly what Dooku was trying to do.
And Kenobi only bet Anakin because he had the high ground. Had the fight continued on level groung Skywalker would have one.
It was obvious from the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight that eventualy whoever made the first mistake would lose. They were both equal at that point. It is possible that Dooku was trying to use Anakin for his own uses. It is obvious he does not know about Palpatine wanting Anakin as his apprentice because of the look on Dooku's face when Palpatine told Anakin to kill Dooku. We know that Dooku wanted to kill Palpatine from his conversation with Obi-Wan in AOTC. Also it is a Sith's nature to try to kill their master. As for saying Obi-Wan was the weakest link is a mistake on your part. If I had to fight two opponants and one was stronger then the other. I would rather get rid of the stronger of the two first. That would mean I would have an easier time dealing with the weaker one. Dooku would have been smart enough to know that.
Yes but Dooku didnt want to kill Anakin. Kenobi was just a nuisance in that battle, he wasnt needed and Dooku got rid of him ASAP. All Dooku wanted was Anakin. It was Dookus task to turn Anakin to the dark side. Obi-Wan had no purpose for being there and so Dooku eliminated him.
The point is that Obi-Wan was obviously a threat to whatever plans he had. Obi-Wan was obviously better then Anakin. Saber skill involved more then just standing in one place and fighting. It involves movement, evasion, location and lots of other things. The true duelest uses his or her enviroment to their advantage. And as we see in his fight against anakin, Obi-Wan used this to his advantage. That was with both Anakin and Obi-Wan suffering a lot of emotional pain. On one hand you have Anakin who believed the Jedi betrayed the republic, just loss Padme, thought Padme was cheating on him with Obi-Wan. On the other hand we have Obi-Wan who is forced to fight his best friend, the knowledge that Anakin had killed all those younglings, the knowledge that the Jedi were being slaughtered like livestock, and the fact that the republic who he defended was responsible for the deaths of so many Jedi. Seems to me that Obi-Wan was definitly the better duelest. Dooku's skill can be debated but from what I saw, both Anakin and Obi-Wan are better then him.
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How could anybody say that? In the movie he went from Makashi fencing to simple Soresu blocking throughout the fight. The sequence before the beheading shows Dooku using both hands in a stiff, rigid, and and rather simple stance somewhat like Soresu.
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Last edited by RaidenDeadpool on Jun 14th, 2006 at 07:42 AM
Im sorry but if Kenobi was better than Dooku, howcome the Count wtf pwned him TWICE. Obi-Wan is a good duellist, no doubt about it, but he is not on the same level of skill as Dooku or Anakin. In the ROTS battle Kenobi and Anakin were basically equal. They each met each other blow for blow. However Anakin had the darkside with him, was full of hate, and had raw strength and power that Kenobi did not. Kenobi was the smarter duellist, but not the better one.
ANakin wasn't actually the'better' either.He was too consumed with grief about Padme 'cheating' on him with Obi-Wan to actually think straight.In other words,he went bananas.If he focused all that 'power' and used it instead of it using him,then Kenobi wouldve died that day.And as I recall from the ROTS novel,Dooku was getting WTFpwned by Anakin,and it even says his age WAS catching up to him,and that without the Force to help him,he was just a frail old man.
Greatest is partly subjective, but facts can still be applied to make one entity seem 'greater' than another. So going by the facts, it is illogical to think Dooku is as great as Sidious, taking into account the values that make a great sith lord.
Yes, I agree, but compared to Sith lords like Maul and even Exar Kun, Dooku is greater. Exar Kun killed a few masters (Dooku killed more), converted a few Padawans (Dooku converted many masters) and started a war (Dooku started a bigger war). Granted, Palpy helped on the last one, but Dooku still deserves credit.
How much has certain sith lord had under his control?
Thousands of CIS systems, which is quite impressive.
What is certain sith lords rank in the chain of command?
He was the apprentice, but publicly he was the Sith Lord. Not many knew about Darth Sidious.
How much has certain sith lord furthered the goals of the dark side (eliminating the jedi)?
The Clone Wars did kill off many Jedi and sent them all around the galaxy for an easy Order 66.
How powerful is certain sith lord?
Not as powerful as his master, but strong enough to stand against any Jedi of his era. Strong enough to fight Yoda for 40 seconds.
The list could go on and on, and you will find that in nearly all values important to being a great sith lord... Sidious is the superior.
Yeah, but besides him and a few others... Dooku is certainly up there.
Jun 13th, 2006 08:37 PM
) and aided in the defeat of Mace. However this doesnt put him above Dooku/Mace seeing they didnt use force powers on him. In ROTS Dooku didnt use the force at all on Anakin and nor did Mace in the Chancellors office.
