Right MJJ can beat him but I'm wondering who coined Shuma as omnipotent anyway. Musta been Wikipedia. If Strange can go to his dimension and defeat him by absorbing his own mystical energy then he is far from omnipotent.
Or is Strange omnipotent when he uses the black arts?
1. Had the Cosmic hierachy (including LT) so afraid,
they didn't even dare attempt to attack him.
LT & the hierarchy were literally "desperate"
and at one point they even "trembled."
2. Defeated the most powerful being in Marvel (Molecule Man) who was above LT.
LT > entire current Marvel Reality.
3. Created a Multiverse from scratch that was atleast Quintillions of times more infinite,
than the infinite Marvel Reality.
(based on Shooter's analogy) -
which was ...
"Beyond Realm is an Ocean ...
while "Our Universe" (Marvel Reality) is a drop of Water"
You do agree that the TOAA(Marvel) created Classic Beyonder..and therefore is more powerful, right? If Thanos had TOAA's power, then how could the Beyonder be above that?
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
True, but withIN Comic Reality.
THOTI never was Toaa/god that draw the Comics. (as in the avatar in FF#511)
THOTI was what Toaa/god would be withIN Marvel's Space-Time in Comics.
Actually,
Toaa/god in the End: (HOTI arc) was Starlin/Milgrom
Toaa/god in Secret Wars II was Shooter/Milgrom.
Half the same ... half not.
Toaa/god in the End arc, made THOTI the ultimate power in Marvel.
(let's not forget that Classic Beyonder does NOT exist in This Marvel)
Toaa/god in Secret Wars made Beyonder "god" of "OUR" Universe,
in fact, "god" before "god" began Genesis. (as in the Bible)
That's right,
Shooter associated the Marvel Reality as "our" (mine and yours Universe)
Thanos never had that kind of power.
You're referring to the actual Oaa/god (artists/writers) which Thanos was not.
Thanos was only able to exercise his power withIN the Marvel fictional Reality,
he wasn't able to tear pages and throw them in the garbage in the literal sense.
That's She Hulk's world.
... That's what I ultimately agreed upon.
But technically speaking, (based on Shooter's official statements)
Beyonder was something greater.
But I can live with them stalemating. (I respect them both)
I hope I presented some thought provoking reasons,
but again, I'll say for the record, imo, stalemate.
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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 15th, 2008 at 09:04 PM
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Thanos was not Toaa/god
(artists/writers outside the Marvel Reality represented by avatars)
Thanos was the Supreme Being (power of Toaa/god) withIN the Marvel Reality.
And yes, the real Toaa/god would stomp Beyonder with little effort.
(all it takes is tearing his page up, like you suggested earlier)
In fact, it's inconsequential putting any character against the real deal.
I finalized my reasons at a stalemate,
and I gave you my reasons in my other response to your earlier post.
Not sure if it's satisfactory but that's how I see it.
I understand where you are coming from. I do disagree with the way that Marvel portrayed the Beyonder...if he was in fact meant to be the Biblical God. If Beyonder was God...then He could've blinked all opposition out of existence with just a mere thought.....including the Molecule Man....there never would have been a fight. However, you can't sell comics without any drama...so, I suppose that's why the Molecule Man appeared to be a challenge for the Beyonder.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
I should point out though, I don't think Beyonder was literally the biblical God,
he was like "God" before there was Genesis.
Imo,
this means Beyonder was "God" unto himself,
while the actual biblical "God" went ahead and created Marvel, lol.
Then Beyonder noticed "God's" creation (the Marvel Universe)
which was like a drop of water in comparison with the Ocean Beyonder encompassed.
Which is insane either way.
I agree 100% ... which is also why we saw the plot seriously force stupidy,
of Doom actually getting over on the Beyonder,
(although Beyonder had his guard down/although Beyonder played a role in that feat)
that should've been impossible.
But hey, including that PIS, helped make SS I, the best selling arc ever.
Haha! So full of irony, no offence.
You've convinced the entire board that the heart had greater power, and now you're trying to tell them the opposite as they've learned.
To me Beyonder was an interesting character, because unlike other omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent beings he was actually interesting to read about. It was like reading about yourself with omnipotence, he basicly did everything one would do with that power.
Oh well, didn't Molecule man say after Beyonder defeated him that the Beyonder was to Molecule man as Molecule man was to Captain America?
Anyway, I've always seen his as a fictional avatar of the author. Shooter made him that way, and the Beyonder only got depowered because Shooter left Marvel.
But then again, wasn't Molecule man more powerful than the entire host of cosmic combinded?
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Which is irrelevant concerning the Beyonder.
Unless you're referring to Galactus' tech absorbing much of Beyonder's power, which then I agree.
But if anyone is gonna tell me Thanos/THOTI was not the omnipotent Supreme Being,
based on logic that's impossible to adhere to,
that is, if you wanna make an arc that last more than Two panels,
(like Thanos acquiring said power, Thanos blinks, arc over)
then I don't wanna hear it, unless it's stated by Marvel.
But if that's correct than the Beyonder must have fought Molecule man with great limitations, I don't know if they were subconscious limitations or whatever.
But to say that Molecule man was close to the Beyonder in power would be the same as saying Captain America is close to Molceule man in power, wouldn't it?
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel though,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.
This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891:
Actually upon further research, you're right. But this would only apply to the debate if you proved that Beyonder's powers somehow had jurisdiction over something that THOTU's didn't. Until you prove that, they are at best equal.
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If Strange can go to his dimension and defeat him by absorbing his own mystical energy then he is far from omnipotent. 
Feb 15th, 2008 08:22 PM
... That's what I ultimately agreed upon.
