He also says, "I wish all of you were like me. But you each have your own gift from God. One has this gift. Another has that." Surely someone in your congregation has the same gife? Or is at least willing to try?
I can't say I agree, as my interpretation of scripture is worthless and my personal views on sexuality aren't those of the bible, I understand and respect that view in the highest. From the passage, I can see how a non-literal, or even a literal, interpretation can be, in fact, a potentially beautiful statement about the commitment of a man and a woman to each other. Especially given the polygamy of the time (I'm assuming), this can be seen in a very pro-woman light.
However, I can also see how, if one selectively takes just the lines 3-5, it can be used as justification for rape. I'm really interested in SS's take on how consent works in that passage, because it appears that he is saying it is irrelevant, unless the wife has a darn good reason for it.
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
He says that they MUST agree to withold from each other. So if the man isn't in agreement then she's wrong to withold. I didn't read anything in that scripture about them having to be in agreement about having sex, rather that they shouldn't deny each other but fulfill each other. Maybe so.
That's a good point.
It doesn't change what Paul said about marriage and sex though.
Yes, you have identified one of the biggest problems with the bible- interpretation and selective referencing. However, there is nothing we can really do about it.
I want to know why he isn't going to give Celibacy a chance...since Paul clearly holds it in high regard and as SS said: "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
It works both ways- it is about total unity of love and the need to protect each other from sin. However, if the woman doesn't want to have sex and the man is lusting- then HE is the one in the graver state of sin. Remember what Christ had to say about lust?
__________________
Last edited by Grand-Moff-Gav on Aug 28th, 2008 at 06:49 PM
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
I also still don't have the exact list of reasons sex is not necessary to perform in a given situation. I get the "I just don't want it" one is apparently not good enough, and the "I am sick" one is. What about the "I really want to see this on TV", the "I got to cook dinner" or the "My vagina hurts a bit at the moment" ones? And where could I read it up when in doubt?
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
If she feels fine physically and isn't busy with things and "wont allow" her husband to have sex?
Well, she's not being a good wife. Is that a sin?
He's not being a good husband by being kind, gentle, and getting her in the mood either. Is that a sin?
I'd say that both are.
And husbands and wives wrong each other all the time.
Look, there are times when my wife and I don't have sex because she's tired and not in the mood. And I do my part by being understanding, preferring her over myself, and loving her more than I love my own body.
There are other times where she's tired and not in the mood but will allow me to romance her and she becomes turned on and gets in the mood.
If my interpretation of the scripture to fullfill one another and not deny one another but give authority of your body over to the other is correct, then the second way is best.
But it's never right or ok to be perfectly fine, not tired, not busy, and just refuse to have sex with each other, "just because."
At least not according to the bible.
(luckily for me, my wife and I have yet to feel that way about each other. )
So, let me ask this in another way. Pretend me and my girlfriend are married Christians.
Now, say I'm in the mood, and she isn't. I do all the things I know that normally turn her on, like a good husband would, and she still isn't feeling it. You are telling me, that she is, I don't know, pissing off God in some way by not having sex? God requires of her to sleep with me if I perform seduction techniques A, B and C, because thats what God requires of a man when he is horny?
Like, i would be justified in calling my wife a "bad wife" for not sleeping with me in that scenario. Pretend I'm trying really hard to turn her on too.
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
No. I love her more than myself, which is the SAME as Jesus loved the church.
It goes like this:
1.) God (Jesus)
2.) Family (wife/kids)
3.) Ministry
4.) community
5.) Self I don't have an exact list but use your common sense. When would you say that you "deny" somebody?
When you're sick? No. When you have really pressing business that has to be done? No. When you want to watch TV? YES. When you have to cook? No. (but after the meal is done if there's nothing going on then yes) If you have vaginal pains? Obviously not. That's not denial, it's common sense.
Does that help at all? One thing: I agree about paul saying there is unity of love and protecting each other from sin. He goes further in the book to say that love is patient, love is kind, long suffering, keeps no record of wrongs, etc..
But you still didn't show me anywhere in the scripture where it says that husband and wife MUST agree to have sex together. All I read is that they MUST be in agreement to abstain. And that if not, they are not to deny each other.
Its logical- if one of them says they are not having sex the other can either kick up a fuss about it and say they have a right to sex or they can put into practice that love Paul was talking about and agree not to have sex. Remember when Paul said they should protect each other from sin? If the husband wants to stay true to that he will agree with his wife whenever she does not want to have sex.
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
And that scenario does happen.
Yes, she's sinning. Should you stone her for it?
Uhhhh.....no. It's not any bigger of a sin than you cursing if you stub your toe on a rock. It's all equal in God's eyes. And he's forgiven you anyway.
I know that most people don't live it out all time. But the point that I was making is that the opening post was right and wrong.
Right in that it's true husbands and wives are to give of themselves to each other and not deny sex.
Wrong that if the man has an affair it's her fault. That's where choice comes in. He chooses to go out an have an affair if he wants to.
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
1.) Because I'm already married. I now have a duty to my wife not to deny her.
2.) That may be "logical" but it's not scriptural. The one of them can't just decide to not have sex, they both have to agree to it. It's not the other partners "choice" to get mad or agree. If they are going to abstain, it's a mutual, agreed upon choice. Otherwise they are not to deny each other, as they don't have authority over their own bodies anymore. THAT'S what's in the Word.
Be careful that you are not adding to the Word.
"5 Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection.6 Do not add to his words, or he may rebuke you and expose you as a liar." Prov. 30: 5-6
Don't quote scripture to me- you through the right to do so when chopped Matthew 16 our your theology.
Its basic-
Wife doesn't want to have sex.
Man does want to have sex.
Man and Wife must protect each other from sin.
Wife is in state of sin for not wanting sex.
Man must agree to not have sex.
Its soo simple and straight forward and also totally irrelevant, because it is ADVICE not a command.
Gender: Male Location: Impacting nations and generations
Okay Matt 16 is about Pharisees demanding a sign, the yeast of the pharisees, Jesus declaring peter is the rock of the church, and Jesus predicting his death. Not that I have the whole chapter memorized word for word, but what are you talking about?
So according to you, the wife is in sin for not wanting sex, and the husband should join her?
Again, where is that in the Bible?
And it may be advice, but it's the Bible. It's breathed by the Spirit of God and ALL of it is good for teaching, reproof, or correction.
You say the wife is in sin if she does not want sex when the husband does want sex- the only way to stop that from being a sin is for the husband to restrain himself and agree.
In that case, why aren't you reccomending celibacy?
Read Corinthians again. Paul clearly says they should get married to avoid sin. He then says they shouldn't deny each other sex- to avoid sin. Therefore if they are going to avoid sin, the husband would be better to agree to the wife's wish to not have sex.
KMC Community Forums
Aug 28th, 2008 06:40 PM
