sad thing is even pre retcon doesn't compare. arguably the strongest character in marvel history means nothing when we are comparing to stronger fictions.
it's like omni king is the strongest in dbz verse, yeah so what
comparing to stronger fiction like umineko
someone like battler ushiromiya would destroy him, featherine augustus aurora not needed.
everything zop mentioned here is at best on the level of michael without actually using his powers casually beating unbound spectre. nothing noteworthy
there's no one in marvel other than maybe toaa or thanos w/regulator that stand up to michael's dunamis demiurgos power (ie the power of god)
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Last edited by MrMind on Dec 14th, 2023 at 04:52 AM
You didn't answer my question. "What does the Monitor realm matter to what Lucifer and Michael did?"
You're just assuming that whatever the Monitors mentioned applies to Vertigo's Yahweh... which then applies to Lucifer and Michael...?
There are several characters who are on-panel responsible for the creation/destruction/recreation of the DC multiverse. All on-panel.
So, why do you consider Vertigo's Yahweh above all? And what feats does Vertigo's Yahweh have over Beyonder? That deepening sense of anxiety you're feeling right now is you realizing that I don't even have to deconstruct the absurd notion that the Marvel Multiverse is "infinitely smaller' than the DC Multiverse.
I mean if you are not gonna put in any effort showing the size/scale of marvel and keep on deflecting, I'm just gonna go back to smoking and watching gintama than wasting time with you.
vertigo yahweh is dc yahweh, last i checked destiny of the endless still sits on the of the dc multiverse map. if you want to say they are different characters, show scans and start posting actual substance.
it's true multiple people have feats showing creating dc, however it does not make lucifer/michael's feats any less canon.
ill wait for someone who actually debate in good faith
^ Let's set aside that Morrison's cosmology heavily conflicts with Gaiman/Carey cosmology... let alone your wildly distorted view of Gaiman/Carey cosmology...
Are you suggesting that what Morrison subsequently wrote -- that really has nothing to do with Vertigo's Yahweh/Lucifer/Michael -- reverse-inflates what Vertigo Michael represents?
That's a rhetorical question given that's obviously what you're insisting... so why aren't subsequent volumes actually featuring Vertigo's Yahweh/Lucifer/Michael influencing your opinion of their status?
Vertigo’s presence, Lucifer and Michael and all the Sandman titles as well as swamp thing and Constantine and related characters are all part of DC.
It’s true there is many creation stories but the primary two are the magic one with Endless/Lucifer/Spectre by Gaiman Carey and other and the cosmic one done by Kirby/Byrne/Wolfman/Morrison.
Morrison loosely tried to make sense of it.
And now Snyder has retooled it even more.
But we know that the Presence/The Source/ The Overvoid are all the same thing, or named pieces of the same thing.
And we know that Yahweh is what the angels call The Presence, or at minimum, the face it shows to them.
One major cosmology for the magic side and one for the cosmic side. (Not including the somewhat meta side that both of these cosmologies actually spawn from Superman.)
Then for purposes of scaling we have to go from there. Which can be a bit more difficult with Sandman characters as it’s largely all fairy tales, fables and metaphors rather than cosmic stories.
So where we do we put Sandman, especially when it’s mostly fables and whatnot?
Well, we look at his interaction and influence of DC.
Well he put most of his power into his artifacts, although he’s not entirely powerless, 12 stones, 1 crown, and a bag of sand.
The ruby which was allegedly the most powerful of the stones found it’s way to Dr Destiny while Morpheus was captive in Vol 1 and then Dr Destiny corrupted it, and when Morpheus confronted him- during their fight over it, the ruby broke and the power went back to Morpheus.
But a small piece of that Ruby’s power also went into Dr Destiny.
Dr Destiny is both able to do to small scale reality warping through dreams without a ruby at all, but also created his own ruby, the Materioptikon and infused most of his power into that ruby.
How powerful is the Materioptikon?
Well, it’s enough to create entire parallel realities/timelines and then overlap them/rewrite them onto the current one. But because it’s flawed it does damage to the entire spacetime continuum.
That’s a fraction of a fraction of a fraction and so on, of Dreams power.
So how do we scale Lucifer when he has the power of the Morning Star and his wings? Do we agree that he’s mightier than Sandman, when even Dream says he’s more powerful than himself?
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Handbooks don't mean shit when actual comics made it clear even celestials were superior to post retcon Beyonder and the cosmic entities were just letting him think all that stuff happened.
Or explain the entirety of Oliver Queens death and resurrection.
Or explain Zatanna and Constantine’s entire history without eachother and without Sandman and Swamp Things books.
Or in Spectre vol 3 Corrigan meeting Lucifer on the beach, where he was in Sandman, and also in Lucifer vol 3 he likes to ask people about all the time.
Or Superman and Batman showing up to Morpheus’ funeral.
Or the JLA and other Earth 2 characters showing up all through Sandman.
Daniel repaying Morpheus’ debt in Morrison’s JLA 23.
Death walking around with and talking to Lex Luthor in Action 894,
and Lex offhandedly mentioning something about what if god is a little man in a bowler hat.
Etc etc
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I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
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