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The Omega
Z10N0101
 Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
Seroth> It’s been a 100 years since the previous One, so he’s dead by now.
But NOT telling doesn’t save humanity. Zion gets wiped out every time the loops end. Only 24 humans survive. Everyone else is killed. Okay, so the previous Ones may’ve thought, that this is a one-way street. No way out. Better to preserve humanity in SOME form, than have the entire species wiped out.
Nickjs> No, that can’t have killed him. The 23 people that the fifth one “freed” knew about him. At least the Zionites speak of him “as the one who freed the first of us”. So he must’ve been present during the freeing. And the Architect said, that TOGETHER they rebuilt Zion. Even if the fifth anomaly died after that, he still had ample time to warn humanity.
Neos predecessor would’ve bounced around with the fourth resistance, done all the anomaly-stuff, visited Zion etc. Zion gets wiped out, the One returns with 23 people who thinks he’s the only free mind and they go about reconstruction work.
He would even be able to reason, that “if I’d only tried the other door”, or “this exact same thing will happen in a 100 years”. Why not a single warning. Unless, of course, the Machines have a way of ensuring he doesn’t speak. Implants are not uncommon.
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 10th, 2003 12:02 AM |
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whiterider
Senior Member
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States |
man your good, i agree with her, omega
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Aug 10th, 2003 12:23 AM |
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nickjs21
Senior Member
 Gender: Male
Location: Cleveland |
omega: true, true. i'm just grasping at straws here. the more i think about it, the more puzzling it is. it seems almost too easy and dismissive to say they didn't see any other way. you'd think one man in five--at least one one--would speak up at some point. and you'd have to think he'd lack a little oomph when fighting agents and whatnot after rebuilding zion. a sort of what's the point message must've been nagging at him constantly.
i don't know, maybe neo was closer than we thought when he said "bullshit" to the architect. *shrug*
__________________
"i don't know half of you half as well as i should like, and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." -- Bilbo Baggins
"what we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." -- Thomas Paine
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Aug 10th, 2003 04:49 AM |
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GABRIEL05
Doom Herald
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States |
Yeah. Yeeeeaaaaah Nick. You'll notice all the TV Neo's said bullshit...Maybe, and this is a little farfetched, because those screens represent Neo's choises, he said bs on every screen, perhaps because the Architect really was bullshitting him. Ergo, vis-a-vis concordantly (I'm sorry I'm sorry I couldn't help myself) He didn't have a choice, because there wasn't a choice to make there.
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Aug 10th, 2003 06:27 AM |
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The Omega
Z10N0101
Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
Nickjs21> That’s exactly what’s bothering me. A machine logic may reason “Ok, to keep the species alive, we have to accept this. This at least ensures the survival of the species.” But mankind isn’t known to always reason rationally . So at least ONE of the anomalies should’ve put a little trust in mankind and left a warning somewhere.
When Neo visits the Architect it’s made clear, that no one knows about the five previous anomalies. No one. This far the machines have never told a lie, no matter how “evil” they are.
The leaves me with the idea, that there’s something going on, that we haven’t had a clue about yet. I think it deals with another discussion we’ve had, that the Architect isn’t as omnipotent as he seems. That the Matrix has gone beyond his control. Perhaps the anomaly has evolved through the loops? The machine AI’s are, for example, able to make upgrades to the agents. Then why not start out with those upgrades. “Killing” the anomaly but be THE easiest way to get him to the Source…
Hmm… I’m blank.
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 10th, 2003 02:24 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
No, I think the implication is clear and obvious- because of their profound attchment to humanity and the immediate destruction that would result if the One told, the truth, all five previous Ones have been left with no choice other than to co-operate with the machines and stay quiet, in thre hope that SOME time in the future things will go differently.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 11th, 2003 12:03 AM |
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The Omega
Z10N0101
Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
Ush> All of the five previous Ones could’ve corporated, chosen the door to the Source, delivered the anomaly code back to the system, and chosen 23 individuals from the Matrix, watched Zion be destroyed and gone to rebuilt it.
After that you have 24 Zionites and some 100 years before it happens all over again. This far the One in question has still corporated with the machines.
My question, is why not a single one of them told one of the 23 freed minds, or left a warning in the Zion database.
So either the previous Ones were brainwashed (into thinking something was a dream, like Neo and the tracer in M1), and couldn’t remember the truth. Or they could all indeed remember their visit with the Architect and for the remainder of their lives in Zion chose to stay silent. If they all hoped that a future anomaly would change things, why not give that hope a little edge by preparing the next One?
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 11th, 2003 03:02 PM |
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happy kine
mirth maker
 Gender: Male
Location: United States (florida) |
or after reinserting the code the one dies and an agent like program unplugs everyone. they can after all infect human minds ie; smith/bane. or after reinserting the code the one's code is rewritten to do the specific task of unplugging. if the one was still the one i would think that would be too great a secret to keep... and the machines, having studied us for so long, should know how hard it is for a human to keep a secret and have some measure of control in place to keep him from squealing like a dirty rat. if i was the one i'd tell everyone what was going on and to prepare for it somhow.... perhaps, perhaps not.
__________________
miasma-istic
w/r/t
civilization???
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Aug 11th, 2003 04:09 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
No, the One knows that if the humans EVER find out the truth they will be exterminated. Simple as that. The machines can exterminate Zion at any time. As SOON as it becomes clear that a previous One has blown the truth, the machines will know that the game is up and that humanity must be totally destroyed immediately. No One will risk this due to their attachment to humanity.
They have no choice but to do what the machines want and stay quiet. Keeping it a secret is the only course of action they can take. But Neo is different.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 11th, 2003 06:46 PM |
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nickjs21
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: Cleveland |
but assuming that zion is really a city, and not a program, how could the machines monitor everything for 100 years? how could they spot if the one happened to mention something, or make some kind of prophecy, or write something down on a piece of paper? outside of zion, they may be close to all-knowing/all-seeing, but they've got nothing inside zion. it's a free city; a doomed free city with a target painted on it, but a free one nonetheless.
__________________
"i don't know half of you half as well as i should like, and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." -- Bilbo Baggins
"what we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." -- Thomas Paine
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Aug 12th, 2003 05:49 AM |
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Verity
Senior Member
 Gender: Female
Location: United States |
I don't think the prophecy is a lie....Neo has much to understand yet...I think Morpheus's faith is strong and will guide him...The architect simply tried to disuade Neo from going thru w his plans..he placed boobie traps. I think the other "ones" were somehow corrupted and tempted w power, and were controlled therefor, by the architects' will....They r now, simply programs that can't get out....Neo is still human...w out borders or boundaries....remember?
__________________
"all we have to do, is decide what to do with the time that is given to us..."-Gandalf.
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Aug 12th, 2003 10:07 AM |
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The Omega
Z10N0101
Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
I see the point with the Ones being keen to protect humanity (due to their attachment), and wishing to prevent eradication. But as Nickjs21 point out, how would the machines know, if a little warning had been left for the next One?
Of course… There are people like Cypher. And he was most likely neither the first or the last one, to betray his own species. And - lets stick with Neos immediate predecessor – the previous One would have no way of knowing, if the message he left wouldn’t somehow be conveyed to the machines. The only hope, therefore, would be in the next One to figure out the truth behind the prophecy by himself.
Verity> How can the prophecy be true, when it’s been going on for six cycles? Each time the previous Ones have not ended the war, but ensured humanitys enslavement. The prophecy is not special to neo. It’s just another system of control, designed to lead each anomaly in turn to the Architect and the Source.
How would the Architect know what Neo was planning? What do you think Neo was planning? The previous Ones were not corrupted. How can it be corrupt to save humanity from extinction?
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 13th, 2003 12:26 AM |
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Verity
Senior Member
Gender: Female
Location: United States |
The corruption of the previous "ones" probably came at the point when they reached the architect, just like Neo...We don't know what the Architect may have offered them...perhaps a share in power?....The oracle does emphasize, for instance, that the Merovingian is a man who thirsts for power!....then the intention of saving humanity would be left in a secondary less important phase for them!...We could suppose that this "one"(Neo)is somehow different...I honestly don't think the Architect expected Neo to go thru the door he went thru, and he was just bluffing! I also believe Neo still has no clue of what he's capable of!...Don't u think the Architect might fear his own safety and that of his kind?,and that he will do or say anything to detour Neo from his path?(please log in to view the image)
__________________
"all we have to do, is decide what to do with the time that is given to us..."-Gandalf.
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Aug 13th, 2003 02:10 AM |
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The Omega
Z10N0101
Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
Verity> The Architect is still a program. He probably held the same speech to Neos predecessors (just with the “we’ve destroyed Zion four times” or “three times”). Had it not been for his love for Trinity Neo might as well have chosen to save humanity, just as the previous Ones did.
The Architect didn’t need to offer the previous Ones anything (and why then, didn’t he try to offer Neo power?). He presented them with the choice “chose the Source and save humanity. Return to the Matrix and every single man, woman and child will die.” Neos predecessors didn’t have an attractive cyber-lady bouncing around in the Matrix when they had to chose. So the choice between mankind’s survival and destruction didn’t require bribery.
Who (And what) the Merovingian is, has nothing to do, with what Neos predecessors chose.
Neo IS different. The Architect even tells us, that Neo has a far more intimate attachment to humanity than any of his predecessors (viz a viz love).
So in a split-second Neo went from humanity’s saviour to the one spelling its doom. The machines now have no mercy.
When Neo tells the Architect, that the machines need mankind for energy, the latter replies, that the machines are willing to make some sacrifices.
This far not a single machine-AI we’ve encountered has lied. They may be oppressive agents of the system, but each and everyone of them has told the truth.
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 13th, 2003 11:28 PM |
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Verity
Senior Member
Gender: Female
Location: United States |
Omega.. We'll just have to wait 'til Revolutions comes out to see how honest the predecessors have been....Also, I believe then, that perhaps the prohecy as Morpheus may have interpreted it, may not be true...but Neo is definitely going to do something(s) that I don't think the Architect has accounted for....As u said, he was surprised that Neo wasn't quite like the rest.(please log in to view the image)
__________________
"all we have to do, is decide what to do with the time that is given to us..."-Gandalf.
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Aug 14th, 2003 01:54 AM |
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Neon
Member
 Gender: Male
Location: UK |
Who wouldn't fly off to rescue Trinity? 
But I still don't understand why the Architect didn't call his goons and force Neo through that other door. But I haven't seen the movie more than 2 times, so don't kill me!
__________________
Bill S. Preston, Esq.: "The only true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing."
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Aug 14th, 2003 02:04 AM |
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nickjs21
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: Cleveland |
neither have i.
if neo was forced through the door, that would really ruin the whole "choice" motif in the movie, wouldn't it? and anyway, i doubt neo could be forced to do much while plugged in.
__________________
"i don't know half of you half as well as i should like, and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." -- Bilbo Baggins
"what we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." -- Thomas Paine
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Aug 14th, 2003 05:26 AM |
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Verity
Senior Member
Gender: Female
Location: United States |
Perhaps no other entities other than the one and the architect r supposed to be in that room 
__________________
"all we have to do, is decide what to do with the time that is given to us..."-Gandalf.
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Aug 14th, 2003 06:23 AM |
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The Omega
Z10N0101
Gender: Female
Location: Denmark |
Verity> It’s true that there is a chance, that Neo may STILL end the war between man and machine. But he’s not fulfilling the prophecy as such. The war has ended between man and machine each time one of Neos predecessors have been by the Architects office. And mankind lost. They were then left in peace to rebuild Zion, and only when the number of rebels became too big, did the machines start the war again for real.
Neon> Remember that the Architect in his long speech tells Neo, that the Matrix only works because the humans who’re plugged in accept it, chooses it, even if it’s only at a near subconscious level. The Architect sits right there in the machine mainframe, the big über-control, so he could probably summon every agent in the Matrix if he wanted to. But Neo has to chose – freely and of his own will.
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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Aug 14th, 2003 01:05 PM |
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FluX
Junior Member
Gender: Male
Location: Hyperspace |
I don't think that the aspect of the love for Trinit is anything new this time.
The fact that Trinity falls in love with the one was also a part of the prophecy. So there is nothing different this time compared to the previous anomalies. In my opinion they all got the same choice to make just as Neo, but for some reason they choose to ensure the survival of the human race.
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Aug 16th, 2003 09:03 AM |
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