In a way yes, depends on from which perspective you are arguing, from a theistic evolution perspective, it would represent the point and which man evolved from an intelligent animal to the point where we were given a soul and a sense of right and wrong and the like.
Or it could simply refer to be being given a soul at the time of creation.
(If thats off topic, I didn't read any of the previous posts)
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
You have made a distinction between humans and animals. This does not make sense because we humans are animals. Therefore, ether humans and other animals have souls or we both don't. And please don't try to tell me that animals don't know right from wrong. I have seen my cat do something wrong that she knew was wrong, and when she saw me, I could see the guilt in her body language.
__________________
Last edited by Shakyamunison on Nov 13th, 2009 at 04:56 AM
Beyond that, nothing identifiable can be shown to be a "soul" or even hint at it. Most of the things listed have some very identifiable source within the human mind. The complexities of our cognition account for most of what people generally refer to as a "soul." Listing differences between Man at a certain point, and Man today, does nothing to refute that, nor does it bring us any closer to defining a soul.
The most cogent defenses of souls that I've seen are ones that admit this and revert it to an issue of faith, belief, and feeling. But that's just what it is: a blind belief in something without evidence. My feelings tell me I don't have a soul, and thus it is refuted upon just as logical a footing (which is to say, none at all). So while that makes my opinion no more right than that of someone who does believe in them, it shows us exactly how silly the belief is in the first place. A vague possibility, however comforting, does not justify a strident belief or, indeed, dogma formed around the idea.
There is a bit of a break in context between what that was written for and this thread, and I see how it could be confusing. That was in response to an attempt to reconcile the book of genesis with a scientific worldview by Dr. Schroeder (from a Jewish perspective). The continuity of behavior was undisturbed, even through the time period at which Adam was theorized to have "fallen." Thus, the ensoulment of humanity manifested a total of zero tangible alterations to the world. The concept of a soul therefore falls irrevocably out of the conversation about the history of life on earth.
The "theistic evolution perspective, [where] it would represent the point and [sic] which man evolved from an intelligent animal to the point where we were given a soul and a sense of right and wrong and the like" comment above is therefore shown to be silly. The change from "intelligent animal" to "sense of right and wrong" is no change at all.
So really, your "nothing identifiable can be shown to be a "soul" or even hint at it" is spot on. That was sort of my point.
In the context of the discussion I pulled that from, art merely meant fabrications of less than total utility. Cave paintings had marginal immediate utility, and are therefore art. Decorations on a sword or pot, for example, have almost no utility and are therefore art. This is not meant to reflect an opinion on the value of art as a whole, but to note that extra care was taken for non-imperative facets of creation.
Re: What Will Go Through Your Mind When You See Jesus?
Give some serious thought to this for a moment.
What will you think once you realize, see, understand, and know firsthand that the Bible was true all along. How do you think you will feel about your decision at that point. Forget all of the things that you have heard about Jesus, forget all of the traditions, misconceptions, and other hang ups that you have allowed to hinder you from believing in Jesus.
What will you do once you see Him with your eyes (stop and think about this for a moment). Lay aside your ridicule, scorn, mockery, and sarcasm, for this one thread and seriously give some thought to this question. What do you think will happen to you once Jesus looks into your eyes and conveys from His mind to yours just how much He loves you, what do you think that you will feel at that precise moment?
Will you feel scorn, ridicule, mockery, hatred, and pride then? How do you think that you will feel when Jesus shows you His nail pierced feet and hands with the scars (or holes) from crucifixion, and then He looks into your eyes and communicates from His mind to yours that He did this for you?
Can you be honest and express how you imagine you will feel at that point? I honestly don't understand the reason why Jesus dying for you is so comical to you. Why do you resist the love of God? Why are you so ungrateful? Why are you so scornful of Jesus after all He has done for you? Would you treat a close family member who has saved your life like you treat Jesus? Stop an think about someone whom you love with all of your heart.
Would you make disrespectful, vulgar, filthy, obscene remarks about that person that you make about Jesus? Stop and think about that for a moment. Has someone ever done something for you that you know you can never repay them for? Consider that for a moment. How did that favor make you feel? Would you dare to ridicule that person or mock them?
Did that person save your life or someone that you know? How do you feel about that person? Are you inspired to feel sarcasm for that person or to hold that person in derision? If anything I would think that you would feel gratitude at the very least. So then why do you treat Jesus with less thankfulness than you treat someone who has done you a favor? You cannot repay Jesus for the pain that He suffered for you, can you?
You cannot repay Jesus for dying for you, can you? How can you repay Jesus, and with what? With scorn, mockery, ridicule, and other irreverence? But you wouldn’t even treat a friend who has saved your life like you treat Jesus—and Jesus died for you. Can you be serious about this post?
Can you give it some serious consideration? What will go through your mind when you look into the eyes of the Lord and you see His compassion and love for you and the pain that your decision to reject His free gift of eternal life causes Him (it cost Jesus His life)? Can you be serious and give some serious thought to these questions? Is it difficult to be honest with yourself just this once?
What will go through your mind when you finally understand the gravity of your decision to reject Jesus? What will you think when you finally discover that Jesus did not come to condemn you, He came to save you (personally) from Hell, and you refused to believe the gospel? What will happen when you finally learn that Jesus was your only hope to ever enjoy true peace from death, sorrow, crying, and pain?
What will you do when you find out that Jesus wanted to give you everything that your heart ever desired and could imagine but you were not willing to come to Jesus so that you might have life? Can you give serious thought to this inquiry? Do you truly desire to experience true love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? Jesus embodies all of these qualities, and He wants you to experience them in a perfect environment enveloped in His love for you.
Where can you go to receive this kind of selfless love? Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. Jesus’ sacrifice was greater than any other human sacrifice because Jesus did not lay down His life for one person or even a nation of people, Jesus died for the world. Can you afford to gamble with your eternal future? What will you give in exchange for your soul?
There isn't any material thing on this earth that is more valuable than your soul because the soul is eternal, but this present earth and the works that are in it will be burned up, and all of these things that you have put such a premium of importance on will dissolve. Everything that you own will be burned up.
The heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. God will make a new heaven and a new earth because this heaven and earth will pass away. But God is doing all of this for you. Why will you miss an event that is for you in the first place?
Do you think that Jesus created gold streets for Himself to walk on? (The street of the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.) Jesus made those transparent, gold streets for you to walk on. Do you think that there are many mansions in Heaven for Jesus? Jesus made those mansions for humanity (i.e. you).
Do you believe that Jesus created paradise (the garden of Eden) and relocated it to Heaven for Himself? Jesus moved paradise to Heaven for you. Do you believe that Jesus created New Jerusalem with its twelve pearl gates (each individual gate was of one pearl, not made out of pearl—it is pearl) for His benefit?
New Jerusalem in Heaven is pure gold (transparent like glass), and it is surrounded by a wall made of jasper. New Jerusalem is laid out as a square; it’s length, breadth (or width), and height are equal (the city is 1,500 miles high, 1,500 miles long, and 1500 miles wide!). The jasper wall of New Jerusalem is 600 feet high!
Jesus definitely does not need a city this size for Himself.
(please log in to view the image) (the actual dimensions of the city in Heaven)
(please log in to view the image) (color of the city but not the actual dimensions)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the United States)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the moon)
(please log in to view the image) (the city relative to the earth)
The foundations of New Jerusalem are twelve precious stones (jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst).
(please log in to view the image)
Is the foundation of your house laid with twelve precious stones? Is the wall of your home jasper? Are the doors of your home pearl? Is your home pure gold? My point is that Jesus made all of this for your benefit and enjoyment (Jesus doesn’t need a city). The only thing Jesus is waiting on is you.
Do you mean to tell me that you are not going to show up for your own reception in this great gathering of friends and loved ones? Will you miss out on this great celebration because of unbelief? What about your believing family members or relatives who have gone on before you, and who are waiting for you to join them? Will you disappoint them? Will you let Jesus down after all He has done for you?
Take some time to really think about all of this for a moment. What do you have to lose by rejecting Jesus? (It is more than your mind can fathom right now I promise you.) What do you have to lose by believing in Jesus? (You have absolutely nothing to lose by choosing Jesus, choosing Jesus is the most important decision that you will ever make, and it is the wisest.) Just ponder this letter and really give some deep thought to what I have written that is all I ask.
Re: Re: What Will Go Through Your Mind When You See Jesus?
Give some serious thought to this for a moment.
What will you think once you realize, see, understand, and know firsthand that the Bible was true all along. How do you think you will feel about your decision at that point. Forget all of the things that you have heard about Jesus, forget all of the traditions, misconceptions, and other hang ups that you have allowed to hinder you from believing in Jesus.
What will you do once you see Him with your eyes (stop and think about this for a moment). Lay aside your ridicule, scorn, mockery, and sarcasm, for this one thread and seriously give some thought to this question. What do you think will happen to you once Jesus looks into your eyes and conveys from His mind to yours just how much He loves you, what do you think that you will feel at that precise moment?
Will you feel scorn, ridicule, mockery, hatred, and pride then? How do you think that you will feel when Jesus shows you His nail pierced feet and hands with the scars (or holes) from crucifixion, and then He looks into your eyes and communicates from His mind to yours that He did this for you?
Can you be honest and express how you imagine you will feel at that point? I honestly don't understand the reason why Jesus dying for you is so comical to you. Why do you resist the love of God? Why are you so ungrateful? Why are you so scornful of Jesus after all He has done for you? Would you treat a close family member who has saved your life like you treat Jesus? Stop an think about someone whom you love with all of your heart.
Would you make disrespectful, vulgar, filthy, obscene remarks about that person that you make about Jesus? Stop and think about that for a moment. Has someone ever done something for you that you know you can never repay them for? Consider that for a moment. How did that favor make you feel? Would you dare to ridicule that person or mock them?
Did that person save your life or someone that you know? How do you feel about that person? Are you inspired to feel sarcasm for that person or to hold that person in derision? If anything I would think that you would feel gratitude at the very least. So then why do you treat Jesus with less thankfulness than you treat someone who has done you a favor? You cannot repay Jesus for the pain that He suffered for you, can you?
You cannot repay Jesus for dying for you, can you? How can you repay Jesus, and with what? With scorn, mockery, ridicule, and other irreverence? But you wouldn’t even treat a friend who has saved your life like you treat Jesus—and Jesus died for you. Can you be serious about this post?
Can you give it some serious consideration? What will go through your mind when you look into the eyes of the Lord and you see His compassion and love for you and the pain that your decision to reject His free gift of eternal life causes Him (it cost Jesus His life)? Can you be serious and give some serious thought to these questions? Is it difficult to be honest with yourself just this once?
What will go through your mind when you finally understand the gravity of your decision to reject Jesus? What will you think when you finally discover that Jesus did not come to condemn you, He came to save you (personally) from Hell, and you refused to believe the gospel? What will happen when you finally learn that Jesus was your only hope to ever enjoy true peace from death, sorrow, crying, and pain?
What will you do when you find out that Jesus wanted to give you everything that your heart ever desired and could imagine but you were not willing to come to Jesus so that you might have life? Can you give serious thought to this inquiry? Do you truly desire to experience true love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? Jesus embodies all of these qualities, and He wants you to experience them in a perfect environment enveloped in His love for you.
Where can you go to receive this kind of selfless love? Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. Jesus’ sacrifice was greater than any other human sacrifice because Jesus did not lay down His life for one person or even a nation of people, Jesus died for the world. Can you afford to gamble with your eternal future? What will you give in exchange for your soul?
There isn't any material thing on this earth that is more valuable than your soul because the soul is eternal, but this present earth and the works that are in it will be burned up, and all of these things that you have put such a premium of importance on will dissolve. Everything that you own will be burned up.
The heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. God will make a new heaven and a new earth because this heaven and earth will pass away. But God is doing all of this for you. Why will you miss an event that is for you in the first place?
Do you think that Jesus created gold streets for Himself to walk on? (The street of the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.) Jesus made those transparent, gold streets for you to walk on. Do you think that there are many mansions in Heaven for Jesus? Jesus made those mansions for humanity (i.e. you).
Do you believe that Jesus created paradise (the garden of Eden) and relocated it to Heaven for Himself? Jesus moved paradise to Heaven for you. Do you believe that Jesus created New Jerusalem with its twelve pearl gates (each individual gate was of one pearl, not made out of pearl—it is pearl) for His benefit?
New Jerusalem in Heaven is pure gold (transparent like glass), and it is surrounded by a wall made of jasper. New Jerusalem is laid out as a square; it’s length, breadth (or width), and height are equal (the city is 1,500 miles high, 1,500 miles long, and 1500 miles wide!). The jasper wall of New Jerusalem is 600 feet high!
Jesus definitely does not need a city this size for Himself.
(please log in to view the image) (the actual dimensions of the city in Heaven)
(please log in to view the image) (color of the city but not the actual dimensions)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the United States)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the moon)
(please log in to view the image) (the city relative to the earth)
The foundations of New Jerusalem are twelve precious stones (jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst).
(please log in to view the image)
Is the foundation of your house laid with twelve precious stones? Is the wall of your home jasper? Are the doors of your home pearl? Is your home pure gold? My point is that Jesus made all of this for your benefit and enjoyment (Jesus doesn’t need a city). The only thing Jesus is waiting on is you.
Do you mean to tell me that you are not going to show up for your own reception in this great gathering of friends and loved ones? Will you miss out on this great celebration because of unbelief? What about your believing family members or relatives who have gone on before you, and who are waiting for you to join them? Will you disappoint them? Will you let Jesus down after all He has done for you?
Take some time to really think about all of this for a moment. What do you have to lose by rejecting Jesus? (It is more than your mind can fathom right now I promise you.) What do you have to lose by believing in Jesus? (You have absolutely nothing to lose by choosing Jesus, choosing Jesus is the most important decision that you will ever make, and it is the wisest.) Just ponder this letter and really give some deep thought to what I have written that is all I ask.
Re: Re: Re: What Will Go Through Your Mind When You See Jesus?
Give some serious thought to this for a moment.
What will you think once you realize, see, understand, and know firsthand that the Bible was true all along. How do you think you will feel about your decision at that point. Forget all of the things that you have heard about Jesus, forget all of the traditions, misconceptions, and other hang ups that you have allowed to hinder you from believing in Jesus.
What will you do once you see Him with your eyes (stop and think about this for a moment). Lay aside your ridicule, scorn, mockery, and sarcasm, for this one thread and seriously give some thought to this question. What do you think will happen to you once Jesus looks into your eyes and conveys from His mind to yours just how much He loves you, what do you think that you will feel at that precise moment?
Will you feel scorn, ridicule, mockery, hatred, and pride then? How do you think that you will feel when Jesus shows you His nail pierced feet and hands with the scars (or holes) from crucifixion, and then He looks into your eyes and communicates from His mind to yours that He did this for you?
Can you be honest and express how you imagine you will feel at that point? I honestly don't understand the reason why Jesus dying for you is so comical to you. Why do you resist the love of God? Why are you so ungrateful? Why are you so scornful of Jesus after all He has done for you? Would you treat a close family member who has saved your life like you treat Jesus? Stop an think about someone whom you love with all of your heart.
Would you make disrespectful, vulgar, filthy, obscene remarks about that person that you make about Jesus? Stop and think about that for a moment. Has someone ever done something for you that you know you can never repay them for? Consider that for a moment. How did that favor make you feel? Would you dare to ridicule that person or mock them?
Did that person save your life or someone that you know? How do you feel about that person? Are you inspired to feel sarcasm for that person or to hold that person in derision? If anything I would think that you would feel gratitude at the very least. So then why do you treat Jesus with less thankfulness than you treat someone who has done you a favor? You cannot repay Jesus for the pain that He suffered for you, can you?
You cannot repay Jesus for dying for you, can you? How can you repay Jesus, and with what? With scorn, mockery, ridicule, and other irreverence? But you wouldn’t even treat a friend who has saved your life like you treat Jesus—and Jesus died for you. Can you be serious about this post?
Can you give it some serious consideration? What will go through your mind when you look into the eyes of the Lord and you see His compassion and love for you and the pain that your decision to reject His free gift of eternal life causes Him (it cost Jesus His life)? Can you be serious and give some serious thought to these questions? Is it difficult to be honest with yourself just this once?
What will go through your mind when you finally understand the gravity of your decision to reject Jesus? What will you think when you finally discover that Jesus did not come to condemn you, He came to save you (personally) from Hell, and you refused to believe the gospel? What will happen when you finally learn that Jesus was your only hope to ever enjoy true peace from death, sorrow, crying, and pain?
What will you do when you find out that Jesus wanted to give you everything that your heart ever desired and could imagine but you were not willing to come to Jesus so that you might have life? Can you give serious thought to this inquiry? Do you truly desire to experience true love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? Jesus embodies all of these qualities, and He wants you to experience them in a perfect environment enveloped in His love for you.
Where can you go to receive this kind of selfless love? Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. Jesus’ sacrifice was greater than any other human sacrifice because Jesus did not lay down His life for one person or even a nation of people, Jesus died for the world. Can you afford to gamble with your eternal future? What will you give in exchange for your soul?
There isn't any material thing on this earth that is more valuable than your soul because the soul is eternal, but this present earth and the works that are in it will be burned up, and all of these things that you have put such a premium of importance on will dissolve. Everything that you own will be burned up.
The heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. God will make a new heaven and a new earth because this heaven and earth will pass away. But God is doing all of this for you. Why will you miss an event that is for you in the first place?
Do you think that Jesus created gold streets for Himself to walk on? (The street of the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.) Jesus made those transparent, gold streets for you to walk on. Do you think that there are many mansions in Heaven for Jesus? Jesus made those mansions for humanity (i.e. you).
Do you believe that Jesus created paradise (the garden of Eden) and relocated it to Heaven for Himself? Jesus moved paradise to Heaven for you. Do you believe that Jesus created New Jerusalem with its twelve pearl gates (each individual gate was of one pearl, not made out of pearl—it is pearl) for His benefit?
New Jerusalem in Heaven is pure gold (transparent like glass), and it is surrounded by a wall made of jasper. New Jerusalem is laid out as a square; it’s length, breadth (or width), and height are equal (the city is 1,500 miles high, 1,500 miles long, and 1500 miles wide!). The jasper wall of New Jerusalem is 600 feet high!
Jesus definitely does not need a city this size for Himself.
(please log in to view the image) (the actual dimensions of the city in Heaven)
(please log in to view the image) (color of the city but not the actual dimensions)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the United States)
(please log in to view the image) (the dimensions of the city relative to the moon)
(please log in to view the image) (the city relative to the earth)
The foundations of New Jerusalem are twelve precious stones (jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst).
(please log in to view the image)
Is the foundation of your house laid with twelve precious stones? Is the wall of your home jasper? Are the doors of your home pearl? Is your home pure gold? My point is that Jesus made all of this for your benefit and enjoyment (Jesus doesn’t need a city). The only thing Jesus is waiting on is you.
Do you mean to tell me that you are not going to show up for your own reception in this great gathering of friends and loved ones? Will you miss out on this great celebration because of unbelief? What about your believing family members or relatives who have gone on before you, and who are waiting for you to join them? Will you disappoint them? Will you let Jesus down after all He has done for you?
Take some time to really think about all of this for a moment. What do you have to lose by rejecting Jesus? (It is more than your mind can fathom right now I promise you.) What do you have to lose by believing in Jesus? (You have absolutely nothing to lose by choosing Jesus, choosing Jesus is the most important decision that you will ever make, and it is the wisest.) Just ponder this letter and really give some deep thought to what I have written that is all I ask.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 11th, 2009 11:05 PM
