Interesting. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from.
It's just that imo, Beyonder's powers were clearly that of a comic character. He was a character, he had flaws and limits (more in terms of his mental state then his power.)
Also he used up a lot of power killing Death, so his power couldn't have been infinite... even with multiple levels of infinity, infinite power can't be reduced or fractioned. THOTU's powers on the other hand were conclusivly infinite.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
That's cool brother.
If Shooter would've made Beyonder what he was intended to be from beginning to end,
there would've been no inbetween the beginning and end,
just the beginning (one panel) and the end (second panel)
which wouldn't be much of a story.
I think we can agree on that.
I've actually used the same argument for THOTI,
against cats who claim his non-omnipotence due to him needing to re-create Marvel,
instead of just fixing the flaw.
And Thanos with all his power, not just a lot, couldn't fix the flaw without the re-creation,
so the door swings both ways.
On the otherhand, at that point, Beyonder had already limited himself greatly.
I agree, but there are some who use petty details to disclaim that.
__________________
Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 16th, 2008 at 09:29 PM
Maybe so, but that's NOT how he was written. This isn't like THOTU, Beyonder appeared in hundreds of comics and they all showed him with some sort of limit (mental or occasionally in terms of power.)
Fortunatly, i'm not one of those people. So there's no need to use that argument on me.
Well that's true. But my point is that logically, Beyonder's power couldn't have been infinite. It might as well have been infinite, but if you can take away some, and have Beyonder be reduced, then it couldn't have been infinite. Thanos had TOAA's power, it's stated on panel. Beyonder being Shooter's avatar was only ever in an interview.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Exactly 51 issues during the second installment.
And I have to disagree friend,
most of those issues Beyonder appeared in, in fact,
were depictions of a Supreme unlimited force.
You can't make statements like that K unless you're sure.
I can send you every Beyonder appearance via AIM/iChat if you wish.
Just pointing it out, no harm in that.
Who said he was reduced?
He said he put a lot of his power is in that cup,
he never stated what level that put him on.
And don't forget, Beyonder had limited himself at that point,
so that may well have been a lot of the power he limited himself to.
Also,
why are you overlooking Beyonder's ridiculous feat,
that screams out not infinity, but infinity beyond-beyond infinity.
I'm talking about the Multiverse he created from scratch,
at-least Quintillions of times more infinite than the entire infinite Marvel Multiverse.
On Panel Beyonder was stated to be the incarnation of Supreme power as well.
And the Cosmic hierarchy (LT included) literally becoming "desperate"
and another time "trembling" speaks volumes.
The Hierarchy didn't fear Thanos.
Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.
Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.
But, are we to take Shooter's word for it? Shooter may have meant the Beyonder to be above himself, but would that apply to any TOAA avatar that has ever been seen on panel?
Take the Kirby avatar for instance in the FF arc. That avatar was actually drawing characters on panel. He even drew the FF on his canvas and it allowed them to return home. If the Beyonder battled this avatar, couldn't Kirby just draw a depiction of the Beyonder on panel...and just trash it...sending the Beyonder into Oblivion.
I know comic books are fallible and even though they try to follow continuity...mistakes are still made...so, I can see how Shooter may put the Beyonder even above himself...but, I don't think the Beyonder would be above EVERY avatar ever displayed on panel....especially this Kirby avatar which could just draw the Beyonder out of existence.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
All the OAA/god representitive avatars are the same.
They represent the writers/artists.
Only the editorial staff has more pull than them.
They usually appear as themselves when throwing themselves in a Marvel comic.
The thing is Rebel,
Shooter was both the Editor in-chief and the Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars.
He also had Galactus on a piece of paper,
and even drew a Cosmos and it became Reality in an instant,
no joke indeed.
I could never answer this precisely, sure sounds logical.
But we have to remember,
the guy who elevated Beyonder to his status was not only the Writer,
but the Editor in-chief as well.
That somewhat raises the bar above just Writers/Artists.
Hey I agree, I'm just being honest, by taking a step back,
and observing all the details from a technical point of view.
In the end,
I rather not even include the plausibility of Beyonder vs a representitive avatar,
we should keep it withIN the fictional reality where characters are bound by Writers/Artists.
So ultimately,
I'd say Beyonder vs the Kirbiesk avatar is really an inconsequential debate,
it produces too many paradoxes.
THOTI is the ultimate Supreme power.
Classic Beyonder was the ultimate Supreme power.
Well many of them display him being supermely supreme, but nearly all of them show him being flawe MENTALLY. There are also a handfull that show his power being limited in some way.
I never said he was weak! But he stated on panel that he was weaker after the cup then before it. Even if he only used 0.0000001% of his power in the cup, it would still mean that taking away a part reduced the whole, and would mean his power wasn't infinite,
Because it didn't have much to do with my point.
Even taking transfinite numbers into account, that statement is all kinds of wrong. Infinite can mean different things, and it gets confusing. I'm not sure what to make of that one.
No one's arguing that he wasn't the most supremely powerful character in Marvel at the time. But statements you made seem like you were implying that a comic character was more powerful then the writer... which is just wrong.
But they still tried to take him down. Not head on, but they weren't exactly to scared to take shots at him (Beyonder'sbane anyone?)
Clearly they should have. It's even pointed out how immensly stupid they in fighting him.
So what's your point? Jim Shooter doesn't have any jurisiction over the REAL "God"... Beyonder was only ever a comic book character.
It's impossible to be above the Writers avatar... by definition they are the ones controlling the story in the first place.
Would be true, but outside of interviews Beyonder was never intended to be anything other then a comic book character... in fact it is impossible for him to be anything else.
So? This battle isn't Jim Shooter vs. THOTU... that would just be stupid. Real Person vs. Comic Book character=Real person always wins. The comic book character is just a piece of paper.
Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. Beyonder is not above the writers, we both agree to that... It would be foolishness to say otherwise.
But the thing is, Thanos w/ THOTU is basically a writer's avatar. They both have the power of the writers WITHIN comics.
What paradoxes? The avatar wins easily, it has true ultimate power.
But we're not quite sure just how ultimately supreme Beyonder actually was.
I am still shocked at Mr Masters change of opinion here. At first he kept saying that Thanos won and now it seems he believes in a stalemate favoring Beyonder.
I still find it hard to believe with Thanos feats on panel how anyone would say he loses here.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
you're right, it's not that hard to get. in a different thread i actually gave this definition of omnipotence that is from one of the many dictionary.coms:
now i've REPEATEDLY said in this and other threads that if THE ABOVE is the definition of omnipotence you choose to accept, then, great!
however, that is NOT the standard definition. shuma is most certainly NOT omnipotent, any more than odin is, or lt, or any other being in marvel. there DO exist levels of infinity. there are NOT subsets of omnipotence EXCEPT if you allow for them in the comicbook world.
but you're right -- it isn't hard. i've said that all along.
and mm -- you say stalemate, but wouldn't the beyonder's realm have been part of 'everything' (as you say) that thanos absorbed into himself when he wiped everything out?
KMC Community Forums
Feb 16th, 2008 09:01 PM
I never said he was weak! But he stated on panel that he was weaker after the cup then before it. Even if he only used 0.0000001% of his power in the cup, it would still mean that taking away a part reduced the whole, and would mean his power wasn't infinite,
