Again, what? If you read the previous page, you'd see I didn't say anything about the game designers intent. In my initial reply, you can see that the devs didn't impact my conclusion. I was just explaining that characters (in this case, Tobin) didn't say things like that for the sake of saying them to truejedi, essentially I was rehashing what you just said into simpler terms. Never did I mention that it held a relevance to my argument.
Keeping in mind that you haven't beat KOTOR2, I would still assume you've escaped Peragus; the newb level. If you recall, when you talk to Atton for the first time after talking to Kreia, you both discuss how cryptic she is. This is only the beginning, I don't think I could count the number of times she's extremely vague and leaves things open to interpretation.
"Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force." Translation: notoriously ambiguous. One of many.
No, there's several reasons actually. I listed one right before I called her a liar. What she says about Revan is certainly open for interpretation and it is her personal view on Revan. Otherwise known as an "opinion". What Tobin said was a statement of fact from an in-universe standpoint, Canderous and the loading screen confirm this. And to question whether or not he is honest would just be daft. Being that two valid sources back up Tobin, it's indication that he is correct.
Furthermore, Kreia being a liar is important insofar that she has an established record of being dishonest in the past. Which suggests that she may not be completely truthful in every instance. Tobin has no such record.
As for Palpatine, he also had a purpose to lie. Tobin did not. You're continually using examples that are incomparable, invalid.
This isn't a debate, but that'd quite clearly be a strawman. I'm not going to fully address it, but I will reinforce the point: the devs are completely irrelevant to my point, lmao. Take away that one sentence and what's left? Everything is still standing. Since my conclusion doesn't rely on it at all, nor am I using it as a basis for assuming anything.
I'm wondering whether or not you even read or understood what I wrote. Not to be insulting, but this is far from the complexity of other issues you've dealt with before.
Not a single person that was alive during the period the NEC was written witnessed Exar Kun's power. Or Bane's. Or Sith Lords X, Y, and Z. Even if they were, we would be assuming that historian A could feel XYZs full power in the Force and could compare it to Palpatine's.
We would also be assuming that historian A felt Sith who never revealed themselves (post-Bane, pre-Sidious). These are Sith no one knew about. It doesn't work out because historian A--or Voren Na'al here--doesn't have all the necessary information to make such an absolute assessment.
My qualifications are:
- Not ambiguous.
- Not opinion.
- Supporting out-of-universe source or objective in-universe source (or both, like in this case).
There are about a million different facts that come primarily from a character. But that is the difference: facts. Kreia and Voren Na'al are giving in-universe opinions, that can't be supported by the information available, etc. What Tobin says is an in-universe fact. Much like a random PT Jedi stating Coruscant is the location of the Jedi Temple or that Yoda is the Grandmaster of the Order.
I'm not saying that Kreia or Voren would be incorrect in every word that comes out of their mouths, but certain statements like the ones you provided would certainly be considered fallible. Along with any other in-universe opinion.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Sep 16th, 2008 at 01:28 AM
Just noting one tiny thing: Tobin is a rebel and a traitor...usually that might require SOME dishonesty lest he give the game away to the people he means to ovethrow.
Let me elaborate: it doesn't make sense for you to continually question "you're using x as a basis" when you don't include all the facts. You're picking and choosing points that support the point. Some may mean nothing on their own, of course, but compounded together it gives my conclusion more weight to it. As in, it gives less and less reason to question otherwise (Tobin's non-sensitivity has been brought into play quite often by members of the forum who oppose/d the idea entirely).
So, if your point was that as stand alone points, x number of people fit them. Then I'd just say "WTF, I know."
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Sep 16th, 2008 at 02:12 AM
I'll concede that, then. This, in particular, cleared it up, thank you:
However:
It does affect this in "the least bit." The only saving grace is that Tobin is corroborated by Mandalore. The proposed part of your argument that Tobin is to be trusted due to the fact that he isn't a proven liar has lost all tangibility.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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*Sigh* Considering the massive work load that i have currently, i might not be able to respond to this anytime soon or worse, i might just have to let it slide and finish what i was commited to do.
Sep 16th, 2008 12:50 AM
