Panel #3 shows Hulk moving out of the way, Juggernaut only looks like he's falling forward, stumbling. That's what happens when you're leaning or pushing against something and it moves. You stumbled forwards, most of the time you land on your face. You don't go running at high speeds several yards.
Panel #4 shows that the Juggernaut doesn't go running forward until after the Hulk spins around and gives him a solid push in the back. The fact that the Hulk is the only character to reference the whole unstoppability thing throughout the whole fight only proves he knows that the Juggernaut always says that in his fights.
There whole fight was a test of strength and will. Juggernaut even says as much right here.
I have WWHulk X-Men, among others. I've looked over that fight a million times. Let me point out the glaring holes in your argument.
No where in the entire fight does ANYONE, Cain, Cytorrak, or Hulk, ever imply that the fight is strength and will. Cain simply states he wants to trash the Hulk. That can only be taken to mean he wants to pwn Hulk, and that hardly limits him to strength. Strength alone does not win fights. He never EVER said he wants to prove himself stronger. Strength is never implied to have anything to do with it in any way, shape or form. He doesn't even say he wants to be better than Hulk. Cain just wants to beat him up.
To further this point, Juggernaut said "We've done this dance before, Hulk. And I won." Since Hulk has beaten Juggernaut more than once, what the f*ck could he be referring to? Well, what's the biggest Juggernaut challenge? What is he known for? Being unstoppable. The only thing Hulk has never accomplished, barring War Hulk, was stopping Juggernaut. The very next panel, we see the rubble digging up in FRONT of Cain's feet, and BEHIND Hulk's feet. Obviously Hulk is being pushed back.
And finally, the side-step. Whether Hulk pushed him or not doesn't make a difference. Someone pushes you, do you go running a hundred yards through a wall and right out into the middle of a lake? Juggernaut CHOOSES when to be unstoppable. And if he wasn't using momentum, no matter how hard Hulk pushed him, he should've been able to stop himself. He should've tripped and fell. He could've skid to a stop. Instead, he runs without stumbling at all, and makes a bee line into the lake. It's clear all the push did was give Juggernaut extra momentum. And it's also heavily implied that it was momentum when Hulk said "Nothing stops the Juggernaut? Fine. Keep going". Key words; Keep going. That directly tells us Juggernaut was in motion.
And that's also the point of WWHulk. Not just an uber-amped-Hulk, but a tactically intelligent one as well. And so he used Juggernaut's own power against him. Strategy is a key feature of WWHulk. Furthermore, Juggernaut was hardly taking the fight. He got two good hits. Hulk heavily dented his helmet with a double upper-cut, and then was crushing it in his bare hands. Juggey quickly head-butted Hulk, and then the test-of-momentum-versus-strength ensued. It was a short fight with no winner in mind, except to show WWHulk's strategy. And to boost Juggey by showing even an amped Hulk can't stop the Juggernaut's momentum.
No you don't run 100 yards, but you do become off balanced and would run for a short distance until you can stop, with someone as strong as Hulk pushing you, I'm sure that distance would greatly increase.
How do you prove yourself to be superior to the Hulk? We saw tons of strong characters take on WWH with the intent to "trash him" and all failed. So how would one show they're greater than the Hulk? The strongest one there is? I dunno, a test of strength maybe? He doesn't have to say he wants to be better than the Hulk, he already thinks he is. He just wants to prove it.
Give me some of these examples of Hulk beating Juggernaut. If you're talking about 1 BFR and 1 psychic back-lash I fail to see how this supports your argument. War Hulk was amped considerably, IMO it's arguable that he was superior to WWH. If Juggernaut was using his unstoppability enchantment on WWH he would've been shoved around as easily as War Hulk was until he activated his enhancements. The minor distance Juggernaut moved WWH proves that he wasn't using his unstoppability enchantment during that fight.
Also, stopping Cain doesn't mean you've beaten him. I wish people would stop with that utter nonsense
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Are you trying to say Hulk isn't strong enough to shove Juggernaut a hundred yards or so? The panel before the shove all you see is Juggernaut stumbling. How do you go from that to him running pell mell into a lake?
Juggernaut clearly had the upper hand in the slugfest. I count 5 hits to Hulks 3, including stomping his face into the ground. Also, Juggernaut barely registered Hulks most powerful strike. He let out an insignificant "hngh!".
There is no evidence to support the unstoppability vs. strength argument. Hulk making reference to him being unstoppable means nothing. How the heck would he know if the enchantment was activated or not?
Dammit, you're missing everything I say. Point time. In order of the paragraphs.
1. Superiority has nothing to do with strength. Superiority is who wins the fight. Cain said nothing about strength. He didn't even say anything about proving himself superior. He said he just wants to beat the Hulk up.
2. Last thing first. I never f*cking said Hulk beat Cain up. Now, I'll explain it better. Hulk has beaten Cain before. More than the times you're talking about, but let's skip it because it's not necessary to prove it to prove my point. Since Cain has lost to Hulk before, his statement "We've done this dance before, Hulk. And I won." is made very unambiguous. He can't be talking about general fight record. What has Hulk always failed at against Juggernaut? Stopping him. What's the dance? The Juggernaut challenging anyone to stop him, and specifically Hulk's strength in such a challenge.
3. I combined two paragraphs to use less space. If Hulk shoved someone, ANYONE, hard enough to make them go a hundred yards, they'd do it soaring through the air. Juggernaut doesn't weigh more than a ton. Hulk couldn't have done more than push him to add to his momentum. And he said "Keep going." when he pushed Cain. How can that possibly be misunderstood? Would you say "Keep going" to someone who was stationary? Combine that with the gravel build up, and it's clear Juggernaut was using momentum before Hulk side-stepped. And I count Juggernaut 3, Hulk 2. Cain punches Hulk, then stomps Hulk's head. Hulk uppercuts Cain, and starts squishing his helmet. Cain headbutts Hulk. That's 3-2. Unless you're counting from the previous fight, which shouldn't even count. Not fair for Cain. And who gives a sh*t if Hulk was hurting Cain or not? Or what the sound effects said? Like the "krrrkrkrkr" of Cain's helmet crushing. It doesn't make a difference to the debate at hand.
4. There is actually tons of proof that it was unstoppable momentum vs strength. Everything I've said above. And as to your question how the Hulk would know? Who would know better than the guy that has most frequently and seriously challenged Juggernaut's power? Hulk has contested against Cain's momentum a hundred billion f*cking times. And it's the only beef Juggernaut has with Hulk. Proving Hulk can't stop him. Besides, if it weren't active, the Hulk would f*cking know. Nobody, not even Thor, has pushed Hulk back across the ground like that. Nobody but Cain even engages Hulk in that manner. When it's Hulk vs Juggernaut, they always challenge momentum vs strength. That's the beef, that's the fight. That's what they've always done. Suddenly, after decades, Juggernaut wants to change the formula that has always worked for him? He suddenly wants to challenge the most powerful Hulk ever in something he's never directly challenged any Hulk at before? Or, what would make MORE sense; he wants to prove that even the most powerful Hulk cannot stop him. He proved his point. WWHulk couldn't stop him. But WWHulk still won by strategic BFR. It was a win-win. I don't even know why Cain was pissed later. He should be stoked to know not even the most powerful Hulk can stop him.
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Last edited by Master Court on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 01:11 AM
Sure it does when you're trying to prove yourself against the Hulk. What better way than to best him in a test of strength? Unless, of course, you think Juggernaut wanted to prove he's more unstoppable than the Hulk?
Besides, kicking the crap out of the Hulk would have nothing to do with him being unstoppable.
Why are you swearing son? Have I upset you?
Anyway, every single time the Juggernaut and the Hulk have slugged it out long enough to make any difference the Juggernaut had the upperhand. IH #172 Juggernaut was winning the slugfest till Hulk BFR'd him, IH #402 Juggernaut beat the living snot out of the Hulk whilst wearing civies.
The only time the unstoppability came into play was IH #457 when Hulk STOPPED the Juggernaut, so you'll forgive me if I don't believe you when you say that's what Juggernaut was talking about when he said what he said. I feel confident he was talking about beating the crap out of the Hulk and overpowering his strength. One of the scans I provided earlier where the Juggernaut was saying he was getting stronger while the Hulk got weaker was from the IH #172 fight and it confirms my "test of strength" argument to a degree.
It makes perfect sense for Hulk to say "Keep going" when he first says "Nothing stops the Juggernaut? Fine." Again, this is the only time his unstoppability is mentioned during the entire fight and it wasn't mentioned by the Juggernaut.
You do realize people can push each other around with pure strength right? It's not like everyone runs at each other to gain momentum before they push someone else. Juggernaut and Hulk started off from a dead stop and Juggernaut used his strength to push the Hulk back a little.
Do you honestly think pushing each other mattered? They weren't even gripping each other in a manner you would if you were pushing someone. It was more like a game of mercy than a shoving contest. They were testing each others strength to the point that the shear force of their strength was being directed downwards due to it being, for the most part, a stalemate and began to crumble the foundation of the X-mansion.
This can be confusing, it confused me at first but it turns out Juggernaut had 5 hits whereas Hulk had 3.
That's 5-3 in favor of the Juggernaut by my count.
Again with the swears. My point for bringing it up was because you made it sound like it was a big deal that he dented the Juggernauts helmet. Also, I was further demonstrating that Juggernaut had the upper hand. Hulk did hit him hard enough to dent his helmet yet the Juggernaut was barely fazed
Jeebus H. Christ. I really should've read this final paragraph before I went through all the trouble above. This just proves that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Juggernaut and the fight in question.
Anyway, we've severely derailed this thread. Hercules doesn't get past #2.
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Last edited by Knowsbleed33 on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 03:43 AM
Look, he never said he wanted to prove himself against the Hulk. Just that he wanted to trash him. How are you misunderstanding that? And being unstoppable and invulnerable are the only things Cain has over Hulk, so it makes since that he'd use his advantages to win the fight.
402 was the Prof Hulk. He didn't even know it was Cain till Cain beat' em up. And, no test-of-strength. 457, War Hulk. Not regular Savage Hulk. Amped with Apoc's tech. Wouldn't change the beef. No test-of-strength. 172, Cain can say what he wants, Hulk doesn't get weaker. He got stronger, and won that fight. Still, no test-of-strength. Quote Cain "Someone who's nearly my equal." He's speaking to Hulk, someone that amps their strength infinitely(or incalculably if you prefer)just by being mad. Almost an admission that Hulk is stronger.
"Keep going" implies Cain was in motion. Yet, there's nothing that directly implies a test-of-strength. You say they start with no momentum? Look again. The panel before that. They are both leaning towards each other and striking. When it comes to leaning into it, it makes Cain unstoppable. ANY momentum makes him unstoppable. It was not mercy either, they weren't locking fingers at all. Furthermore, you say the foundation was crumbling because the shear force of their strength was directed downwards. Well, physically, someone HAS to be stronger. So if it were mercy-style, one of them would've went down, not back.
I don't get confused. I count clear un-blocked hits, not tie strikes.
Didn't mean to make the helmet crushing sound like a big deal. My only point was that Cain didn't come in all glorious and awesome and show Hulk what's what. He came in, they had the same fight they always do, ended it with the same momentum versus strength challenge they always do, and nothing changed. Does my swearing bother you? Because it doesn't f*cking bother me.
You haven't proven a single f*cking thing. There are at least hints and sh*t that it's about Cain being unstoppable, but they never EVER mention strength at all. You may or may not know more about Juggernaut than me - if so you've done poorly considering - but this fight if painfully obviously momentum vs strength.
I put forth a challenge to you. One that I would easily concede the entire argument for, and we could stop this paragraph sh*t. Give me a standard(ie not Trion) Juggernaut feat of strength that trumps WWHulk, keeping in mind that WWHulk's feats include any Hulk feats seeing as how he's canon to be the most powerful Hulk ever.
And, well, ditto on the derail.
Hercules beats 1 and 4, whether it's A-Bomb or Abomination.
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Last edited by Master Court on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 11:20 AM
1. The Thing - Wins.
2. The Juggernaut - If you consider him to be the equal of Thor, it's a stalemate.
3. Superman - If you consider him to be the equal of Thor, it's a stalemate.
4. Abomination - Hercules wins.
5. World War Hulk - If you consider him to be the equal of Thor it's......ah who cares. World War Hulk thrashed him. World War Hulk wins. Hercules just isn't portrayed that way consistently.
6. Galactus - Galactus wins.
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