Yahweh is omniscient, the only reason he doesn't really know whats going on in creation is because he cut himself off from knowing (which even Yahweh says is very hard to do). But its still fact that everything in creation is STILL under The Great Plan of his. So he doesn't really need to know whats going on because he already knows whats going to happen anyway. He left a window open for something to happen that he might not know (but still that follows the Great Plan). In 68 Yahweh doesn't need his Throne to return to Creation, he never says "i need my throne to return" he can return whenever he wants! He's holding creation in his hand.
Could Yahweh and The Infinite be the same being??? and The Presence and TOAA(The Source) be the greatest aspects of him in it?? seems correct.
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<<Thats poor Juntai especially when by definition the Crown equals the Presence and like you said the Presence aspect created reality so to did the Crown through the BigBang/Phoenix.>>
whoa.
now you're equating the pf with the presence? or are you now saying the crown itself is yet another entity? i thought you equated in our earlier discussion the crown with the whitehot room? now you're saying the crown (not toaa) started things off via the pf?
but then wasn't the CROWN also 'created', and wouldn't that mean that the pf would have been used PRIOR to the crown's creation because the crown IS seperate from toaa?? or did toaa create the crown WITHOUT pf then decided it needed pf to create the multiverse???
criminy.
the easy question -- lucifer demolishes that silly yahweh entity in that what if issue. i recall seeing that image (and it was reminiscent of jesus) and thinking it was a joke of some sort and done in poor taste.
And in DC Spectre created the Big Bang, started the universe, but the Presence existed before that. The Presence is the first aspect of creation. There seems to be no way of proving that The Crown is even above The Spectre by this theory. Crown created Pheonix/Big Bang, Spectre created Big Bang. Crown seems to be a piece of God.. Spectre is a piece of God. See what I'm saying now? This can be leaned any way it wants to.
There is still a complete lack of evidence to put TOAA beyond anything but The Presence besides your theory of never having seen either one -- The Unmanifest, when we've not actually seen the Presence itself, only manifest it's power in various comics such as Paradise Lost when it protected the JLA and the Angels by making them all invulnerable.
Although, not cannon it is known that the Brothers in Marvel vs DC before the idea being thrown out, were originally supposed to The Presence and The One Above All. Do some research on it.
But then again The Presence has been used as another name for Yahweh in religion. God is light, holy and everything good. Yahweh even said he was the Architect of the Universe, he is the God of this Universe as we know it today. Yahweh(the Presence) is 1 of many Gods in the Universe, he is just the most powerful and was retconned right before time began so he could create a Universe that he could rule.
The Source sits right outside of creation, watching everything. anyone who really thinks about the meaning The One Above All, it should seem they are talking about The Source, it is TOAA without saying it. the Phoenix Force gets its power from The Source, thats it only! PF is not the Source in another form, much like The Presence(Yahweh) powers others but they are not him.
The Infinite lays even beyond The Source, nobody I believe has ever talked to The Infinite, only his hand has been seen at the beginning of time.
Here is a few sites showing the formation of the complete universe (it would also have to somehow be in line with Marvel since they have done crossovers together, meaning Marvel would HAVE to agree with everything DC has done and vic versa DC would have to agree with everything Marvel has done).
This is just 1 of a few ideas of how DC could have it set up. Another is Yahweh and The Infinite being the same being (which probably is true) and YHWH does sit on the Throne, when Elaine was thinking about sitting on YHWH's Throne the Angels around them argued that nobody should sit on his Throne but God only! it is also true The First of the Fallen saw past the light and saw God himself, this is 1 of the reasons he was thrown out of Heaven. When The Beast was awakened he went to Heaven to ask God why he was here, The Presence got in the way and tried to destroy each other. The Beast knew God could tell him why he was here (he was created to be a balance for God).
See this is why you should pay attention when i write my essays Leo ive gone over this many times before in the past. Something i dont intend to do again anytime soon lol.
Right now all i can suggest is that you google "Sephiroth" "Keter" (The Crown/Phoenix consciousness) and "Tiphereth" (Phoenix in creation) and you will find all the answers you need.
For a start the Spectre never created the Big Bang. Thats your misinterpretation/misunderstanding or a twisted account of what actually happened. Id like to believe the former but either way the result was the same.
The first point in creation is the Presence. From that descended the Source/The Big Bang which resulted in the original DC universe.
Kronas experiment in which he gazed into the dawn of time to see the origin of creation caused an energy backlash which splintered the original universe into a multiverse.
The heroes and Anti M travelled back in time to the dawn of creation before that happened. Spectre and AM started their battle. When Krona carried out his experiment (therefore unwittingly shattering the universe into a multiverse ) there was a flash of light engulfing all of them. Next issue we found out that the Spectre had held on to the shards of reality helping the original universe to remain intact which meant the multiverse never existed.
How is that creating the Big Bang my friend? It really isnt. Yeah he held together reality which is a good feat but how on earth did you interpret that Spectre created the Big Bang/Source. Thats absurd. On top of that the Big Bang had already occurred which is why the heroes were fighting it out on a planet.
With all that out of the way lets start again.
By definition the Crown and Presence are the same thing. By the real life principles that they are both based on they are the same thing for their respective comic book companies. They are both the first point in creation, the origin point. From the Crown came the Big Bang/Phoenix Force which represents it , just like in DC The Source/Big Bang/ is the Presence within creation. All of them are aspects of their supreme beings Marvels TOAA and Dc's Yahweh.
The Crowns very existence in Marvel is what equates TOAA to Yahweh. There has been no mention of any other being who could be Marvels supreme being and TOAA is widely regarded as being so. If it wasnt for the recent introduction of the Crown then you'd have a point. But currently that isnt the case. By definition they (Crown and Presence) are one and the same and by on panel representations they seem to be the same.
Of course the Presence hasnt been physically seen on panel. As stated on panel it is not a physical being however it is represented in creation by the Primum Mobile. Just like the Crown is represented in creation by the Phoenix Force manifestation/Big Bang. Both being symbols of Keter which translates as Crown and Presence. In fact isnt the Source itself th eenergies of creation, the Big Bang? :
Presence is an aspect of Yahweh so its perfectly understandable why in the comic that people would refer to things Presence is responsible for as things Yahweh has done. They are one and the same.
More awful logic. So basically your only basis for saying that TOAA is Marvels Source is because The Source sits on top of creation and TOAA is called TOAA. Get out of here Kev LOL.
The Source by role and on panel representation has been shown to equate to the Phoenix Force. They are both the energies of creation for their respective companies, from them all life springs in their comic book worlds and it was suggested they were one and the same on panel in crossover.(A Dark Phoenix shard was brought into being by the energies of the Source) Just like Phoenix represents the Crown, The Source represents the Presence they are one and the same.
Not necessarily so. Crossovers are cash machines the writers really dont pay much mind to their respective companies continuity and most crossovers arent acknowledged as canon anyway. Youre looking too much into it. Some crossovers however have been acknowledged and all that indicates is that each companies supreme being is likely an aspect themselves of an omniversal supreme entity.
Why are you telling me this for? What relevance does this have? Have you thought the angels could have been speaking figuratively. Have you actually seen Presence sitting on the throne in person? No you have NOT. Why? Because the Presence isnt a physical being, he is merely represented by the Primum Mobile its his seat of power where is presence is felt and can be consulted. Thats all my friend. Thats all stated on panel. I believe Juntai or someone like that had the scans.
Youre taking this way off topic Kev. To sumit up. By role and on panel representation Phoenix and the Source are the same for their respective comic companies as was suggested by the crossover and by the fact that they are both the energies of creation from which all life derives from. They are both the Big Bangs.
By definition the Crown and the Presence are one and the same and their representations support this. On top of that they are both the first points of creation and they are both unseen powers represented in creation by the symbols of Keter (The Primum mobile and the Big Bang). They both are served by the seraphim (The Phoenix avatars of the Crown in Marvel).
TOAA by all accounts is Marvels supreme being and has never been represented or seen on panel not even by his agent LT. With the introduction of the Crown its quite clear that it is the Unmanifest just like Yahweh is within DC.
Either way the argument that TOAA is the Source is completely unsupported on panel.
You still have a complete lack of evidence you're trying to pass off as actual fact, I'm telling MY OPINION, on the ranks. As there is completely little basing either of our things in fact, I'm just discussing my ideas with you so don't try to take the high ground like you're right and I'm wrong, when it's simply not the case.
However it is fact that Spectre created the DCU as it is, though not the PREVIOUS Multiverse in which The Presence said "Let there be light.". It's even in his secret files on DCcomics.com that he ignited the universe. As opposed the dcuguide.com site you're taking facts from, I'm taking from the COMPANY'S page.
As far as the DC seems to go, Yahweh created the possibility of creation and creation itself [ in which the entire omniverse, as many multiverses have existed within it's boundaries and it's impossible to tell exactly how vast it is.]. He manifested a piece of his power into it, identified as The Presence, the Presence is the Universe's "God", creator of Heaven and Hell, Azmodel recognized this, Satan in Spectre's comics recognized it as such, as did Neron in Paradise Lost. However, the BIG BANG which made the physical universe was still not created, it did not come until the wheels of the universal forces of good/evil, law/chaos already had begun to turn, heaven and hell clashed, and Spectre having moved to the dawn of time... created the universe.
Even in Zero Hour, Spectre remade the Big Bang AGAIN, through it was immediately reversed pages later when they replaced Hal after Spectre defeated him with Hal before he erased everything. It definately shows the scope of his power though.
The point of me telling this of Spectre is just to show...-- there's really no evidence putting The Crown even above Spectre in terms of importance or power, let alone equating the all encompassing Presence.
And yes, it was a non canon comic, as obviously they didn't want it to be God vs God, they opted for a different route. But the writers themselves intended it to be such, and the DC/Marvel comics were done by some of the most respected memebers of the comics community. But hey, it was just something I was throwing out, don't get ate up over it.
Interesting conversation btw.
Last edited by Juntai on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 01:59 PM
Interesting post man. Keep in this thread, another added imput is always appreciated, not many can keep up once we delve this far into the comic-dom, lol.
Im just stating my opinion on the matter as well. Thats all any of us are doing on these forums. Some peoples opinions however just happen to be better supported on panel.
You see J youre backtacking here. This isnt what you originally said. You said the Spectre created the Big Bang. After i highlighted the errors in your line of thinking youre now downsizing the feat to say Spectre is responsible for the DC universe being in its present state which is true. Did Spectre create the universe? NO. Spectre kept the original universe in the form Presence created it intact. He held on to the reality splintered by Krona and put it back together. That isnt creating the universe tahts saving it. Which is also what DC say on their official site:
Cant see any mention of Spectre igniting creation. But then we all make mistakes. No worries.
Nope. Incorrect. The universe was in its early stages. The Big Bang had already happened. The heroes went to the dawn of creation not the pre creation void. As stated in the pages of Crisis the multiverse was formed after Krona gazed into the past to see the universe being formed. Spectres actions kept Yahwehs creation intact in its original form. Spectre didnt create the universe he is however responsible for its current form. That also explains why the heroes were fighting it out on a planet. Or do you suppose it was created off panel merely for the purposes of battle?
The Crown by definition and on panel representation is the same thing as the Presence. They are both aspects of their respective companies supreme beings. The Phoenix equates to the Source and follows on from the first point of creation the Crown. Just like the Presence is the first point of creation and the Source Big/Bang followed on from him. Both the Presence and The Crown are represented on panel by the symbols of Keter and on panel they have been presented in teh same role.
Youve changed your tune in the last few weeks J. I always thought you beyond my aspect of gods better than yours arguments.
Cool. Glad you acknowledge that. On top of that the idea you laid on the table was scrapped therefore it has no bearing on this debate.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 02:19 PM
I don't have time to tackle the rest of it there, but, look down the the little white box at the bottom, towards the middle-right.
It clearly says Anti Monitor was DESTROYING CREATION, as a whole, not just the multiverse. And it clearly says Spectre ignited the universe as well.
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It's not a matter of my Gods better than your Gods arguement. It's a discussion. I've clearly proven that The Crown seems to no higher on the food chain than Spectre let alone The Presence, which is your own "My Gods better than yours" claim when trying to debase some of the previous posters in the thread's own opinions. And acting as if you've grounded it in fact. I said from the start, there's no proving either case, I was just giving my take.
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I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
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Ive read it. It says he reignites the universe after Kronas actions put an end to it. That fits in perfectly with what ive been saying. He started it up again, he never created the universe and certainly wasnt responsible for the Big Bang.
No, you're NOT reading it. It clearly says and I'm QUOTING "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe." It doesn't say REFORMED, it says REIGNITES. HE -REWROTE- The Presence's creation from it's very beginning. And certainly the guy who built the physical DCU in Current Continuity, certainly started the Big Bang. To think otherwise is kinda dumb.
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Dec 21st, 2005 03:38 PM
i thought you equated in our earlier discussion the crown with the whitehot room? now you're saying the crown (not toaa) started things off via the pf?
