Captain America (Steve) vs. Wildcat and Green Arrow

Originally posted by h1a8
If Bucky is a peak human then Spider-man is class 50 or above.

If you were a good debator you wouldn't jump to illogical conclusions. I don't once think that Batman =Steve in the physical department. I'm trying to not be bias here, something you should try as well. A peak human feat doesn't qualify you to be peak human if you are a normal human. You must be enhanced with some outside agent (like a chemical) in order for that to happen. Cap can be enhanced human or peak human because of an outside agent (SSS).

By this definition, Batman isn't peak human either (for a normal human could theoretically be stronger).

Also you have the comic definition of peak human and the real life definition of peak human. They are not the same. Every hero (no matter if they have powers or not) have at least peak human feats (in the real life definition). But some are not peak human (in the comic definition).

In Summary, a normal human CAN NEVER REACH PEAK HUMAN unless they receive some outside agent to achieve it.

What are you talking about? Are you saying it is impossible for a human to reach the limits of the human body? It's not. You could - I suppose - argue that no one in the real world has done it, but that doesn't mean such a limit doesn't exist, and that is completely irrelevant because peak human does exist in comics. Not to mention comic characters have better feats across the board then even the best real human in ever. single. category. A person could make the case that since no human has done it that Bucky and his peers must all be super human... but we don't because we know their placements within the established status quo set place in the actual comics. This is among the flimsiest arguments I have ever seen on KMC.

Bucky is a peak human, his feats have made that pretty clear since he came back as Winter Soldier, and it is well established that he is stronger and faster than Black Widow (who is a peak female character), and more recently it was shown that he is physically on par with the male versions of the Black Widow (the Wolf Spider program) who were all enhanced with bio-technology to be peak human. Punisher has implied Bucky is better then him and Frank is pushing peak in several categories himself. If a character is stronger or faster then Bucky, they are super human. Spider-man's strength doesn't factor into the equation.

Originally posted by wellillbedamn
you gotta remember that the majority of people on this site are idiots. plus with morons like carver9, quanchi, srank and marvel knight leading the charge.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What are you talking about? Are you saying it is impossible for a human to reach the limits of the human body? It's not. You could - I suppose - argue that no one in the real world has done it, but that doesn't mean such a limit doesn't exist, and that is completely irrelevant because peak human does exist in comics. Not to mention comic characters have better feats across the board then even the best real human in ever. single. category. A person could make the case that since no human has done it that Bucky and his peers must all be super human... but we don't because we know their placements within the established status quo set place in the actual comics. This is among the flimsiest arguments I have ever seen on KMC.

Bucky is a peak human, his feats have made that pretty clear since he came back as Winter Soldier, and it is well established that he is stronger and faster than Black Widow (who is a peak female character), and more recently it was shown that he is physically on par with the male versions of the Black Widow (the Wolf Spider program) who were all enhanced with bio-technology to be peak human. Punisher has implied Bucky is better then him and Frank is pushing peak in several categories himself. If a character is stronger or faster then Bucky, they are super human. Spider-man's strength doesn't factor into the equation.

You didn't understand me. There are two versions of peak human, one in comics and one in real life. Any peak human feats in comics are actually super human feats in real life and any peak human feats in real life are just athletic feats in comics.

You must go by the intentions of the writers. The writers don't intend for Bucky to be stronger than any human who ever lived without some outside agent. This makes all the stuff you said moot.

Comic logic must be applied across the board. The logic you apply to Bucky must also be applied to Spidey. Is Spidey a class 100? Please answer that.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't understand me. There are two versions of peak human, one in comics and one in real life. Any peak human feats in comics are actually super human feats in real life and any peak human feats in real life are just athletic feats in comics.

You must go by the intentions of the writers. The writers don't intend for Bucky to be stronger than any human who ever lived without some outside agent. This makes all the stuff you said moot.

Comic logic must be applied across the board. The logic you apply to Bucky must also be applied to Spidey. Is Spidey a class 100? Please answer that.

Except for that is the intend of the writers. Characters like Batman, Bucky and current powerless Black Panther are peak human. They have reached a mythical glass ceiling of human conditioning, where it is impossible to physically advance without moving into meta territory. Bucky is a strong and fast as a human can be, that is the intent of the writers. Him being stronger or faster then any really human is irrelevant to the topic, because no real human is peak human. The writers intend for Bucky to be the pinnacle of human potential, and he is.

Spider-man is class 20. Bucky is peak human. That is the established levels of the characters. Why does Bucky being peak human make Spider-man class 100? It doesn't.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Except for that is the intend of the writers. Characters like Batman, Bucky and current powerless Black Panther are peak human. They have reached a mythical glass ceiling of human conditioning, where it is impossible to physically advance without moving into meta territory. Bucky is a strong and fast as a human can be, that is the intent of the writers. Him being stronger or faster then any really human is irrelevant to the topic, because no real human is peak human. The writers intend for Bucky to be the pinnacle of human potential, and he is.

Spider-man is class 20. Bucky is peak human. That is the established levels of the characters. Why does Bucky being peak human make Spider-man class 100? It doesn't.

You are having delusions. It is extremely clear that writers don't intent for Bucky nor Batman to be as strong as a human can be. Take the strongest pure human in comics and he will be stronger than both Batman or Bucky.

Why is Bucky peak human by your definition? Is it because of peak human feats? Well Spidey has class 100 feats. Is he now class 100 by your definition?

Originally posted by h1a8
You are having delusions. It is extremely clear that writers don't intent for Bucky nor Batman to be as strong as a human can be. Take the strongest pure human in comics and he will be stronger than both Batman or Bucky.

Why is Bucky peak human by your definition? Is it because of peak human feats? Well Spidey has class 100 feats. Is he now class 100 by your definition?

Bucky has superhuman feats of strength, just like Spider-man has class 50 strength feats, but those feats don't matter because they don't fall in line the majority representation. James is peak human because 99% of his feats are peak human, that is how he is portrayed in comics. He isn't an Olympic who has sporadic occurrences of peak human strength, he is a constantly peak human who occasionally displays superhuman abilities. It's not really a matter for debate, Brubaker has made it pretty clear that Bucky is above Olympics like Falcon (and Hawkeye), and has peak human attributes on par with the Wolf Spider Program (an inferior Russian Super Soldier program which created peak human soldiers). Hell, the last Batroc one shot that came out a few months ago was all about how Batroc was peak human, the best he could possibly be, and yet not able to beat Bucky.

They only pure humans who are stronger then Bucky are Kingpin and Bane, and they have blatantly superhuman strength.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Bucky has superhuman feats of strength, just like Spider-man has class 50 strength feats, but those feats don't matter because they don't fall in line the majority representation. James is peak human because 99% of his feats are peak human, that is how he is portrayed in comics. He isn't an Olympic who has sporadic occurrences of peak human strength, he is a constantly peak human who occasionally displays superhuman abilities. It's not really a matter for debate, Brubaker has made it pretty clear that Bucky is above Olympics like Falcon (and Hawkeye), and has peak human attributes on par with the Wolf Spider Program (an inferior Russian Super Soldier program which created peak human soldiers). Hell, the last Batroc one shot that came out a few months ago was all about how Batroc was peak human, the best he could possibly be, and yet not able to beat Bucky.

They only pure humans who are stronger then Bucky are Kingpin and Bane, and they have blatantly superhuman strength.

Bucky only has less than 5% of his feats as peak human. Remember that peak human in comics is not peak human in reality. Bucky having super human feats in comics doesn't mean those are super human feats, it means they are peak human feats (by comic standards).

Beating characters have no bearing on one's status. Cap, Batman, etc. has beaten more powerful foes with physical force. That doesn't put them in the same strength range now does it?

Bucky may have the skills and technique and agility, but he doesn't have the strength of a peak human (comic standard). Otherwise, Spider-man possesses the strength of a class 100 being.

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bucky only has less than 5% of his feats as peak human. Remember that peak human in comics is not peak human in reality. Bucky having super human feats in comics doesn't mean those are super human feats, it means they are peak human feats (by comic standards).

Beating characters have no bearing on one's status. Cap, Batman, etc. has beaten more powerful foes with physical force. That doesn't put them in the same strength range now does it?

Bucky may have the skills and technique and agility, but he doesn't have the strength of a peak human (comic standard). Otherwise, Spider-man possesses the strength of a class 100 being.

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

Nothing you are saying makes any sense... did you just have stroke or something?

All of Bucky's feats since being reintroduced into continuity as the Winter Soldier are peak human, and everything before that was severally retcon'd by Brubaker's updated origins for Bucky. I'm not even entirely sure what you are trying to say (because it doesn't make any sense), but what ever it is, you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible for a character to reach peak human status without aid, but you're wrong. Three or four months ago current Black Panther stated plain as day on panel "I'm peak human." Dude even used the words peak human for Christ's sake. Then there was that previously mentioned Batroc story out around the same time, that actually involved Bucky. There is no debate here, Bucky is established as being as stronger and faster then several Olympic level characters, as well as being the equal of several characters who themselves have been stated on panel as being peak human. What more do you want?

Pure humans can have super strength in comics, and some rare ones do. Kingpin and Bane are strong enough to causally rip a mans arm off while shaking their hands, that is superhuman strength. Is it explained? In the case of Kingpin, no, but that hardly matters. Frank Castle is a pure human and he has superhuman damage soak. There are limits to the human body, when a human character tanks a frag grenade point break (ie Frank Castle) and is fine, that doesn't raise the damage soak bar for the collective human population, what it does is make Franks Castle a freakish outlier with durability and damage soak several orders of magnitude above human. We don't need to know the reason why a character has superhuman abilities to diagnose it as superhuman.

feats put Ollie and Wildcat at peak human. Ted damage soak and strength could be considered superhuman as well, but according to you theyre simply "olympic level". Thats only a often used term in dcu handbooks. It doesnt hold more weight than whats displayed in comics.

Ted is pushing superhuman damage soak, and peak human strength, but Olympic in all other areas. Ollie is Olympic across the board.

^ I agree here. The term gets throw around too often, when there are truly only a few characters who are truly peak human a crossed the board. Batman is of them. Ted and Ollie aren't. Even Dick has peak human stats when compared to Ollie. But lets say that Ted or Ollie is peak human in all stats for the sake of their argument i.e. namorsubby and h1a8. Cap is still levels above that. But some don't seem to acknowledge it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nothing you are saying makes any sense... did you just have stroke or something?

All of Bucky's feats since being reintroduced into continuity as the Winter Soldier are peak human, and everything before that was severally retcon'd by Brubaker's updated origins for Bucky. I'm not even entirely sure what you are trying to say (because it doesn't make any sense), but what ever it is, you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible for a character to reach peak human status without aid, but you're wrong. Three or four months ago current Black Panther stated plain as day on panel "I'm peak human." Dude even used the words peak human for Christ's sake. Then there was that previously mentioned Batroc story out around the same time, that actually involved Bucky. There is no debate here, Bucky is established as being as stronger and faster then several Olympic level characters, as well as being the equal of several characters who themselves have been stated on panel as being peak human. What more do you want?

Pure humans can have super strength in comics, and some rare ones do. Kingpin and Bane are strong enough to causally rip a mans arm off while shaking their hands, that is superhuman strength. Is it explained? In the case of Kingpin, no, but that hardly matters. Frank Castle is a pure human and he has superhuman damage soak. There are limits to the human body, when a human character tanks a frag grenade point break (ie Frank Castle) and is fine, that doesn't raise the damage soak bar for the collective human population, what it does is make Franks Castle a freakish outlier with durability and damage soak several orders of magnitude above human. We don't need to know the reason why a character has superhuman abilities to diagnose it as superhuman.

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.

All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid.

Originally posted by h1a8
I see you are making your arguments stronger. You are trying to upgrade from the irrelevant weak sauce. The only characters that have been said to be peak human is classic Captain America and Black panther as you said. But this is because of outside agents. Now exactly how did Bucky prove he was stronger or is strong as an enhanced BP?

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

[b]Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.

All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid. [/B]

Batman has lifted over 1000 lbs. on panel.

Batman has flung an 600 lbs. man-bat and bench pressed a coffin lid while inside through 600 lbs. of dirt.

And Bruce isn't classified as superhuman either. But he does have feats that are borderline. But he's definitely peak human.

I would also have to agree that Bucky is peak human considering all his years of rigorous training and combat experience add in with his feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
I see you are making your arguments stronger. You are trying to upgrade from the irrelevant weak sauce. The only characters that have been said to be peak human is classic Captain America and Black panther as you said. But this is because of outside agents. Now exactly how did Bucky prove he was stronger or is strong as an enhanced BP?

First of all, my definition of Super human is the comic one, not the real life definition (as you are using). In comics, a pure human can rip thick steel in half without being super human. In real life they would be classified as being super human (but not in a comic). The definition of peak human strength is as strong as a comic pure human can possibly be and any more added strength classifies them as super human (not human anymore).

Again, I repeat:

[b]Last thing, pure humans in comics CAN'T HAVE COMIC SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH for they are not super human. A super human feat by a pure human in comics doesn't classify one as a super human nor as a peak human.

This whole argument is moot anyway. Does Bucky feats make him stronger than real humans? Of course they do (who feats doesn't?). Does Bucky feats make him as strong as a comic human can possibly be? Hell no! Thus he is not comic peak human.

There are several comic pure humans that are clearly stronger than Bucky. If there were no comic pure humans that were significantly stronger and Bucky received an outside agent then we can indeed say he is peak human.

All heroes in comics have Super human feats. But does that make them super human? You can't pick and choose where you can classify a character if they have feats that contradict. You must go by writer's intentions. It's logically impossible for a comic pure human to be a comic super human in a comic without aid. [/B]

Captain America is supposed to be the pinnacle of theoretical human potential, which isn't quite the same as peak human. He is as fast and strong as the human body will ever evolve to be, a couple hundred (maybe a thousand) years from now he would considered be peak human, but right now he superhuman.

Black Panther is no longer enhanced by the Heart Shaped Herb, and hasn't been for more then a year now. The HSH enhanced BP's attributes to superhuman levels on par with Captain America, Wolverine and Kraven, currently T'Challa is only peak human. It's been stated on panel.

Bucky isn't as strong as Steve and HSH Black Panther, because they are both low level superhuman.

Pure humans can potentially, and do have superhuman abilities. Flex Mentallo, is just a regular human who can reality warp by flexing his muscles. That's a superhuman ability. The source of the ability is irrelevant in identifying whether or not it is superhuman. Kingpin rips off peoples arms, his strength is blatantly superhuman. Why does he have superhuman strength? Maybe he is a once a century genetic freak? Maybe he is on steroids? Maybe his body naturally produces elevated levels of testosterone and adrenalin? Doesn't really mater, he is superhuman regardless of the explanation as to why.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America is supposed to be the pinnacle of theoretical human potential, which isn't quite the same as peak human. He is as fast and strong as the human body will ever evolve to be, a couple hundred (maybe a thousand) years from now he would considered be peak human, but right now he superhuman.

Black Panther is no longer enhanced by the Heart Shaped Herb, and hasn't been for more then a year now. The HSH enhanced BP's attributes to superhuman levels on par with Captain America, Wolverine and Kraven, currently T'Challa is only peak human. It's been stated on panel.

Bucky isn't as strong as Steve and HSH Black Panther, because they are both low level superhuman.

Pure humans can potentially, and do have superhuman abilities. Flex Mentallo, is just a regular human who can reality warp by flexing his muscles. That's a superhuman ability. The source of the ability is irrelevant in identifying whether or not it is superhuman. Kingpin rips off peoples arms, his strength is blatantly superhuman. Why does he have superhuman strength? Maybe he is a once a century genetic freak? Maybe he is on steroids? Maybe his body naturally produces elevated levels of testosterone and adrenalin? Doesn't really mater, he is superhuman regardless of the explanation as to why.

No real life human can do anything super human. That would be a contradiction. No comic pure human can do anything super human. That would be a contradiction. If a pure human in comics where to throw someone in space then it is either PIS or simply the feat wasn't super human. This is an exaggerated point, but as long as you understand it.

I have to go. I'll give more later.

The human body doesn't have limitless potential, there are certain biological limits to the human body. The strength Kingpin is displayed as having is impossible. Even if a person could use all their muscle fibers at once (which is impossible) to peak efficiency, they still wouldn't be as strong as Kingpin and the strain of that strength would rip apart the muscles, tear tendons off of bone and damage the skeleton and joints. Kingpin operates above well human potential, and he does it with no negative side effects. He has superhuman strength. Kingpin's strength isn't possible by comic human standards, it is possible by Kingpin standards, because - for whatever reason - he is superhuman. His strength is well above the established limits of even comic book peak humans like Daredevil and current Panther, who are stated - on panel - as begin peak human.

Capt is likely stronger then Wildcat and Green Arrow combind.........

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The human body doesn't have limitless potential, there are certain biological limits to the human body. The strength Kingpin is displayed as having is impossible. Even if a person could use all their muscle fibers at once (which is impossible) to peak efficiency, they still wouldn't be as strong as Kingpin and the strain of that strength would rip apart the muscles, tear tendons off of bone and damage the skeleton and joints. Kingpin operates above well human potential, and he does it with no negative side effects. He has superhuman strength. Kingpin's strength isn't possible by comic human standards, it is possible by Kingpin standards, because - for whatever reason - he is superhuman. His strength is well above the established limits of even comic book peak humans like Daredevil and current Panther, who are stated - on panel - as begin peak human.

Now we can except Kingpin's feats as PIS or we can say that, in a comic, a pure human could possibly pull something like that off. If the latter, then it becomes a human feat, and not a super human one.

You keep arguing about what's possible and impossible according to real life standards and not within comic standards. In this forum we have PIS if a feat(s) is too extreme. Otherwise, we just assume by suspension of disbelief that it is possible to achieve by a human being. Peak human is represents the strongest a human can possibly be before being super human. Hence, the word "Peak".

Lastly, Spidey has shown strength feats that should tear up his muscle fibers or crush his bones. It happened as Bucky's feats happened.

Is H1 trying to argue about comic logic over real life logic (even though he knows nothing of either)?

Oh, this is rich

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Is H1 trying to argue about comic logic over real life logic (even though he knows nothing of either)?

Oh, this is rich

My point is that if Bucky's feats classify him as a peak human then Spidey's feats should classify him as a class 100.

To prove bias, Shrank classifies Logan at a minimum of class 5 based off his top feats (which are about class 5). Well Spidey has far more feats over 20 tons (class 100 at the highest) and he still consider Spidey at class 20.