1. Clowns
2. Clowns
3. Tools
4. DESTROYS
5. RUINS
6. Clowns
7. Destroys
8. Stomps
9. RUINS
10. We've seen how this goes- Even when holding Back, Luke still wins.
The un-necessaryness of this thread can not be understated. Sorry, but these are not even all the top tier of the Saga. Luke tears through them like a Lightsaber through rice paper.
Also, the order is a bit messed up- I'd have placed Yoda above Revan, and Adi Galla above TPM Obi Wan.
Edit: My 'leet' vocabulary clearly struggled to come up with INTRAWEBS vocab for so many separate ownages.
That means that this thread will probably degenerate into Luke vs. Yoda, so lets see...
Yoda <or= RotS Sidious
Rots Sidious < DE Sidious
DE Sidious < LotF Luke
I feel safe using ABC because Sidious is a common enemy: we can compare the two combatants' performance against the various incarnations of Darth Sidious to gauge their relative power.
Yoda vs. RotS Sidious
We've all argued this to death. Yoda is probably the superior combatant, but Sidious fought more intelligently. I would call the two nearly equal.
Luke vs. DE Sidious
You should be the one to tell me about this fight, seeing as how I've never read the comic. From the scans posted/discussions I'd feel safe calling Luke about = DE Sidious. He is defeated by the clone body, but is later able to kill him when Leia is present. This means that Leia gave some benefit, even if there was no 'formal' Battle Meditation going on. LotF Luke is immensely more powerful than his DE incarnation. His showing against Shimmira and Raynar Thul shows that much. LotF Luke is solidly > DE Palpatine.
Outcome
The outcome would not be a stomp. I'll admit that. There is no evidence however, that allows Yoda to win any confrontation with LotF Luke. It may be a challenge, but He would take all 10/10 fights.
I'd call him a plot device at this point, rather than a character.
You would feel safe saying that Luke circa Dark Empire is equal to the reborn Emperor?
That's quite a remarkable stretch, since that very same Luke Skywalker was put into a coma by the disembodied spirit of Exar Kun and overcome by a moderately talented dark Jedi, Desann. One example of interest is his battle against Kueller, another Sith aspirant who greatly increased his power in the Force through a technique that involved destroying civilian lives -- across the galaxy, the deed was able to put Skywalker in such a state of pain that he mused it surpassed the torture he suffered at Palpatine's hands at Endor. The New Essential Chronology states that Kueller had a "Force advantage" against Skywalker during their final battle, whereupon Skywalker opted for suicide and intended to return in spirit form to guide Leia to victory. Here is Luke's account of Kueller's power relative to Palpatine's.
"The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy.
So powerful that a man like Brakiss, who had so much talent in the Force that the Empire had taken him, as a baby, to train in the dark side, was terrified of him."
And here is an account provided by Mara Jade, the former Emperor's Hand:
"I haven't felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he'll do it quicker."
So, by Mara Jade's opinion, Kueller -- who was more powerful than Skywalker -- was only comparable to Palpatine "in the early days." A comparison against the reborn Emperor is hardly flattering. Not to mention, of course, that Skywalker's defeat of Sidious in lightsaber combat is irrelevant; he was forced to rely on the innate strength of his sister and nephew to sever Palpatine's control of the Force Storm and, to quote the Essential Guide to the Force, Luke "eventually realized" that he wasn't "strong enough to defeat Palpatine on his own."
So, yes, the reborn Emperor was stronger than Luke Skywalker and by an impressive amount.
Meanwhile, in a fit of aggression, Luke was still wounded and injured by Caedus, who was about to kill him if not for Ben's intervention. Not that Skywalker wasn't better. He was. And he dominated the fight. But the moment before Ben intervened and attacked Caedus from behind, Luke was about to die.
I did not know that. I thought someone (Lightsnake? Lucien? Enyalus?) argued that the BM from Leia was debatable. I didn't know Leia's BM was substantiated.
Lets be fair, many, many excellent Jedi and Sith have been wounded or killed when their opponents attack in desperation. To be injured during a fit of rage, like Vader in RotJ was, or Dooku in RotS, or Maul in TPM, or Sidious's 'challenge' to deflect Maul's attacks when provoked- in all of these cases, a superior (by far) fighter is either killed, injured or put in danger because of a risky, hotheaded move by a all but defeated foe. By no means does this reflect poorly on them. Is Vader any less skilled because Luke attacked him with a Baseball bat in RotJ?
I didn't say curbstomp, did I? I said he would win all of his matches, with difficulty. Yoda uses superior speed, skill and Force knowledge to defeat his opponents. I'm not sure he has those advantages here. Luke's speed approaches the highest level shown in history. His raw force power (obviously) exceeds Yoda, and this influences his skill with a blade. Also, Luke has done things with the force as of LotF that we haven't seen anyone else do: The massive Force illusions serve to further illustrate the degree of control he has achieved, and influencing Caedus's visions is a feat that has not been replicated. LotF Luke is BA. He surpasses Yoda in the categories that Yoda uses to win fights- I just think He would be able to defeat the former Grandmaster in the majority of cases.
To be fair, in light of his inferiority to Sidious, I am willing to revise it to 8/10 fights won. I'd still say that Luke is firmly above Yoda in terms of speed, knowledge and effective skill (total output of Saber skill- includes Force Use to augment abilities)
i believe the same as everyone else. Luke clears. Decently easily. I wouldn't put his victory over Yoda as a curbstomp, but i would put it easily into the 8/10, 9/10 range. there are a few characters more powerful than Yoda, and luke in turn is more powerful than they. So not a curbstomp, but at least handily i believe.
On the legal note. I watched Boston Legal today for the first time ever. Pretty good show. NEbody else watch it?
last season? figures... I usually hate legal shows (like CSI or w/e) but this one was better. i hardly ever watch shows on TV though, no time, so if i ever get the chance to get the season on DVD i will. (been around for a long time? lots of seasons?)
I doubt that even Luke can just walk through this. I'm not sure that he'd win. Once he starts getting to like the Exile, Mace, and Dooku he'd more than probably be taxed enough to not be back at full strength by the time he gets to the next fight. After several rounds of that I don't see him taking down Cadeus.
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Dooku was on the brink of a total shutdown with the Force. Then he had a few moments WHILE IN THE MIDST OF BATTLE to catch his breath and rejuvenate himself, and he was back at peak performance. Exhaustion would not be a factor. Luke can just 'Jedi healing trance' himself to 3X the amount of rest he'd normally get. So he gets about 4/12 hours effective rest between each battle- more than enough to recuperate taxed energy/force reserves.
Also, why on earth do you count the Exile in the same level of challenge as Mace or Dooku. Luke would steamroll the Exile, but might have to give some thought to Windu or the Count. The Exile is really a non-factor. There has been no evidence to put her anywhere near the top of the PT era, let alone near DE levels. The Exile is basically a gimme for the majority of SW combatants, to say nothing about Luke.
Assuming Luke goes all-out, he should be able to easily give Mace and everyone weaker than him the ragdoll treatment. If he could do it to Caedus, who by Invincible had surpassed Darth Vader in power, he's probably capable of doing the same to Vader's inferiors.
To be fair, Faunus, I want you to keep this in mind. While it's completely obvious that Skywalker was more powerful than Caedus, the only time that he gave his wayward nephew the "ragdoll treatment" was when he used the Force to telekinetically pin him to his chair, which he did without warning and during a discussion. In fact, the narrator and Caedus note as much: while Luke was keeping him there without any visible effort, he did so without warning.
It is the exact same scenario that you provided regarding Darth Sidious and the three heretical Sith acolytes. He demonstrated superior power by disintegrating all three of them with a one handed gout of Force lightning (it's actually a lot more impressive than Skywalker's feat, but I digress) but you correctly pointed out that they weren't expecting it, nor was it in the context of a fight. So while he's certainly better than the three acolytes (as Skywalker is better than Caedus) nothing suggests that either of them could replicate the same feats with the same ease. Especially when one takes into account that the Dark Side Sourcebook says that Sith alchemy is an art reserved for "the most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith."
Meanwhile, when they actually did fight, and Luke attacked totally aggressively and without warning (again) and with the element of surprise, he was still wounded. Did he dominate Caedus for the most part? Absolutely. But he was injured as well, and when the fight ended, Caedus was in the position of advantage and was about to kill Luke.
Oct 25th, 2008 11:46 PM
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