He's a "prodigious warrior" of "great martial prowess" clad in an armour that made a failed padawan effectively stalemate a Jedi Master, and shares the memories, wisdom and cunning of Freedon Nadd and King Adas; the former being a close contender with Masters while a padawan and surpassing Naga and the latter making some of the most powerful Sith in his day cover before his roar. Granted, Null clearly isn't comparable to Adas or Nadd in any way, shape or form.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
That's still on par with Kas'im, er, I mean Venamis. Keeping in mind that Nadd with just a pistol killed more Jedi than any Sith with a lightsaber, including Tulak Hord.
Then Ulic Qel-Droma vastly improved by the time he faced Exar Kun in a stalemate, and despite becoming a 'warrior magus' with 'immense' powers, far more powerful than all of the Krath, in the following years, Exar Kun himself became head and shoulders above him in that time frame.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Last edited by AncientPower on Jun 29th, 2016 at 06:13 AM
Because being a prodigious warrior in magical armour that has memories of the long dead = being an ambidexterous DoE Bane + level master of all forms of lightsaber combat and being trained from birth to match one of the most powerful Sith Lords in existence, apparently.
K... Warb Null doesn't have a blaster, nor is he really as skilled a marksman, swordsman, or combatant in general as Freedon Nadd. He isn't even close.
Based on what did Exar become "head and shoulders" above Ulic? Sure, he should've logically grown to be more skilled given him adopting a new style of fighting, and being more powerful in the Force thus improving faster, but nothing notes he's "heads and shoulders" above him. Ulic should still, in a lightsaber engagement, be comparable to Exar.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Technical knowledge isn't everything as Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis and Darth Vader all proved. Freedon Nadd and King Adas provided Warb Null with a combination of a two life times worth of immense combative experience and gave him reflexes almost faster than thought. That is all besides his own expert swordsmanship and stated mastery of the dark side.
Jedi Ulic Qel-Droma fodderised Null and his five Krath Warriors in short order, Spirit Nadd and Ommin even basically admit that Null doesn't stand a chance.
Because Exar Kun became 'unparalleled', learnt Sith teachings that Kreia accurately states makes modern era Kotor Jedi, including evidently TOTJ era Jedi like Vodo Siosk-Baas, look like children playing with toys. Freedon Nadd before either Kun or Ulic had been corrupted, tells Ulic he'll be one of the 'great ones' and states there is one even greater than Ulic, Exar Kun.
Fast forward to their respective primes and we know that Exar Kun is 'far more powerful' than any other Jedi of his day. Considering it clearly refers to Exar Kun himself as a Jedi, then there's no reason to assume Ulic is irrelevant in terms of the statement.
Obviously Ulic Qel-Droma gives him a hard contest either way, but the superiority is clearly there for Exar Kun in terms of statements.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Lucky for Venamis, he has more than technical knowledge -- he has physicals rivalling Plagueis, an inherently strong Force connection(y'know, something that wins duels most of the time) based off of nearly a thousand years of succession from Darth Bane, who shits on Warb, and, to make Plagueis' feat even more impressive, in-depth knowledge on how Hego fights and how to counter such fighting tactics. Comparing Null to Venamis is just ludicrous.
That lifetime supply of knowledge didn't really aid him all that much against a hindered Ulic. It didn't even aid Telloti against his master, and Telloti was being driven back most of the duel. Now, Telloti is no Dovos, but it's still worth noting how all the knowledge from Nadd and Adas helped so little in the end and didn't help at all against Qel-Droma.
Alright, I guess. Warb would be fodderised by Bane or Zannah, as well, and both Venamis and Plagueis are confirmed to be heads and shoulders above them.
Um, Traya said the Ancient Sith and was referring to Sadow, Tulak and Ajunta Pall specifically and was comparing herself and a pre-prime Exile to their skill. We know Vodo-Baas is more than a child playing with toys compared to Exar Kun, given his victories over him and them fighting relatively evenly until Kun used the double-bladed function of his lightsaber.
As for Nadd, great that confirms Kun > Ulic. Give me proof he's "heads and shoulders" ahead of Ulic.
Given that statements have said Ulic is the "greatest Jedi Knight" of the time, it would seem he is in fact irrelevant to that statement. And Exar being far more powerful than any other Jedi while a Jedi would be contradictory to Vodo being capable of trading wins and losses with Exar and casually defeating him(prior to Kun's Jar'Kai and rage amp) when actually going all-out in a spar and giving him grief in a later fight.
Great, I never doubted Kun's superiority. I doubted your statement saying Exar is heads and shoulders above Ulic.
The funny thing is, AP wasn't originally even claiming Null was on-par with Venamis, but rather that Kun stalemating Ulic was as good as beating Venamis, using the Null feat to substantiate Ulic, but felt the need to defend the point anyway.
Null is cool and all, but he's just a dude who drew inspiration from Adas and Nadd and donned alchemically enhanced armour. Him being a Trakata adept and fending off Tott/Cay at the same time is decent, but he's nowhere near the same ballpark as Venamis.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Neither Venamis nor the incarnation of Plagueis that fought him are confirmed to be heads and shoulder's above Bane and Zannah Wollf.
As an apprentice who never became a master, Venamis is not subject to receiving scaling, and Plagueis though he is superior to Bane in his mastery via the quotes, the quotes did not specify when in his mastery, and considering he didn't best Tenebrous through a display of superiority, and the Tenebrous way implies this Plagueis's powers to be considerably beneath Tenebrous's, not to mention a side by side comparison of their abilities in the Plagueis novel (Tenebrous almost knocking Plagueis over with the speed of his departure and Tenebrous managing the effects of the explosion when Plagueis got thrown on his ass).
So no, Plagueis as of this point does not get Banite scaling, and Venamis likewise doesn't receive it given his failure to secure the rank of master (hell, Tenebrous hadn't even proclaimed him a Darth), and both Bane and Tenebrous have greater feats than Plagueis or Venamis at this point.
I agree Plagueis is well above Kun, and I agree peak Plagueis is head and shoulders above Bane, but I do not for a second buy the notion that Venamis is, even if he is impressive in his own right.
The only argument that would suggest Venamis and Plagueis as of this point are would be that potential+training argument ILS is fond of, but you've already told me you disagree with that line of thought, and Tenebrous was stated to have not trained Plagueis to the best of his abilities anyways.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Last edited by Emperordmb on Jun 29th, 2016 at 08:08 AM
Plagueis at this time should at least be comparable to Tenebrous, given he felt his master's life had gone on long enough. I believe even the Tenebrous Way notes that Plagueis has surpassed Tenebrous by the time of his death. So yeah, the RoT scaling is quite applicable to Plagueis. It's also quite applicable to Venamis seeing as Venamis was ment to be a legitimate apprentice powerful and skilled enough to kill Plagueis when the time arrives(well that was what he was trained for, anyways), so it's perfectly reasonable to assume two Sith Lords who were legitiatemly trained to not just be expendable pawns by Tenebrous, one of which is implied to have surpassed him, would get scaling from Bane and Zannah and should be considerably ahead of either.
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
The Tenebrous way never by any stretch of the imagination implied Plagueis surpassed him by that point in time though and their showings on Baldemnic paint Tenebrous as the clear superior, and the Tenebrous way even notes that Tenebrous was negligent in his training of Plagueis.
So no, the Plagueis Tenebrous comparison, which is central to your entire argument comparing Bane and Venamis, doesn't stand, and thus neither does that argument.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
The title was self proclaimed IIRC since Venamis said Plagueis's death would legitimize it.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
The Tenebrous Way doesn't note Tenebrous' negligence over Plagueis; it notes how Tenebrous spent more time perfecting his Maxi-Chlorian technique than training Hego, and instead sent Hego on missions that were doomed to fail from the beginning. We do know Tenebrous trained Plagueis to at least a good enough extent that Plagueis no longer required his master, and they've had the trade-mark Master/Apprentice VS Kursid warriors trainning session several times.
On Bal'demnic, Plagueis and Tenebrous seemed to be more on-par than anything else. The only time it ever implies Tenebrous' superiority is when he nearly knocks Plagueis back with his swiftness, but you'd need to stretch quite a bit to make that a 100% concrete clue that Tenebrous > Plagueis. We know Plagueis gained up and kept up with Tenebrous, after drawing deeply on the Force, and Plagueis wasn't even ready to depart when Tenebrous started running and the former was even surprised just how fast the latter started rushing madly. So Tenebrous was more-than-likely moving faster than usual and nearly knocked back an unready Plagueis. That doesn't say much. In fact, regarding speed, Plagueis collapsed a portion of a cave almost faster than Tenebrous could even realize it.
In terms of TK, both managed to successfully support the massive collapsing rubble falling upon them and Hego even broke Tenebrous' telekinetic grip over some of the stone slabs and hurled them onto him(again, so fast that Tenebrous barely realized it). And this is before Plagueis' confirmed power-growth prior to meeting Venamis, at which point he would've logically grown even further.
So by the time of his duel with Venamis, Plagueis and Venamis should've both been at least very close to Tenebrous and thus scaling should apply to both of them.
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Sorry for Syndicating, but I'm still on vacation and thus restricted to my phone.
"Instead of actually training his doltish apprentice, Tenebrous had flattered Plagueis' mysticism while pricking his insecurities, sending him off on one useless, doomed-to-fail mission after another."
"Full access to his apprentice's Force-perceptions! Delightful. Better than Tenebrous had allowed himself to hope. Hmm-perhaps he should have invested some time in actually training the foolish Muun."
Tenebrous trained Plagueis to a good enough extent that he no longer required his master? You do realize in the Banite line even POD Bane was powerful enough to function on his own in the Galaxy without a master and with FAR less resources, so that hardly proves anything. Tenebrous never intended Plagueis to surpass him, merely to set Plagueis on the immortality seeking path so he'd create the chosen one with Plagueis possessing an unparralleled aptitude for midichlorian manipulation, however even with the ability within Plagueis Tenebrous prized most and was most essential to his goals, Plagueis under Tenebrous's training hadn't even reached the point where he could influence the midichlorians, merely perceive them, and even then Tenebrous viewed his ability to do so as "clumsy force probing"
And on Baldemnic, I was mainly referring to Plagueis's inability to handle the massive explosion and that he got knocked on his ass by it, whereas Tenebrous not only blocked the entire explosion from reaching him and Plagueis but simultaneously held several ship crushing slabs above their ship.
And as far as the speed goes, the Tenebrous way confirms that Tenebrous's death was all part of Tenebrous's master plan, so I'm a little more than hesitant to view the circumstances of his death as indicating parity or superiority on Plagueis's part.
So again no, Banite scaling does not apply to these two.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
So did Malgus, Bane, Scourge, Vindican, and several students at the Korriban academy before they were christened Darths or without ever being christened Darths. Just having a Sith name is definitely not indicative of one being a Darth.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
The point not being that Warb Null is as strong as Venamis, but that the amount of accolades and feats he has, paints him as a very strong Dark Jedi with knowledge on par with Venamis, if not superior to him. Warb Null who, again, was fodderised by an Ulic far less powerful than the Ulic facing Exar Kun whom himself improves drastically.
Exar Kun learnt from the Dark Holocron which contains Sith knowledge, the oldest of which dated further back than a hundred thousand years. Exar Kun's saberstaff is stated to be from an ancient Sith design, he verbally owes his victory over Vodo Siosk-Baas to a correct use of ancient Sith teachings. This implies heavily that Exar Kun's new unique form, which was stated to make him a virtually unstoppable combatant, was derived from the Dark Holocron or Naga Sadow's treasury and thus his style would be relevant to Kreia's (accurate) assessment.
Exar Kun in his prime as a Sith was stated to be far more powerful than any other Jedi of the time, clearly they still consider Dark Jedi to be relevant to that stated or it wouldn't state he was far more powerful than other Jedi. Thus the implication of Exar Kun being far more powerful than his apprentice is valid.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Jun 29th, 2016 04:46 AM
Thanks Scribble!
