How important do you think numbers are in a confrontation between Force users? The impression I get is that they are usually not as valuable as people think, and thus the chances a team of relative weaklings have of taking down a powerful opponent is frequently overestimated.
A few examples:
1. Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan. This is a particularly apt example given that Anakin and Obi Wan would be an especially well coordinated pair. Here, a restrained Anakin is still pushing Tyranus to his limits, and Dooku isn't faring well against the two at the same time, but he isn't quickly dying like people would predict. Rather, he manages to take out the weaker combatant, Obi Wan, while simultaneously kicking Anakin away. And yet Dooku seems to have more trouble with Anakin alone than the two of them together.
2. Bane and Zannah vs. Rastka Lsu and co. This is an example that is actually stated by the narrator - the other Jedi comment that they're getting in Rastka Lsu's way, and mainly help by providing her with battle meditation and protection from Force attacks. Up close they don't really contribute anything except for when they're facing a separate opponent (.ie Zannah).
3. Sidious vs. Anakin and Yoda. This was just a vision but the tactical progression of the fight probably isn't super fantastical for Yoda to take seriously; TCW Anakin and Yoda together would destroy Sidious if numbers mattered a great deal, but instead Sidious can just take out Skywalker quickly and not really lose out on that much. Indeed, it actually hinders Yoda, who must protect him.
4. Revan vs. the strike team and similar examples. Before SoR, few people would seriously argue that Revan could take on the entire strike team that faces him in SoR, but that's precisely what he does. It turns out that when his telekinesis is that far beyond anyone's defenses, it doesn't matter all that much how many of them there are; until his power is dispersed so much that they can resist it, he can just toss them around at all. This is likewise true in other instances of a single powerful combatant tooling multiple weaker ones.
5. Luke, Jaina and Ben vs. some sith in one of the FotJ books. Literally here the sith end up hitting one another.
There are counterexamples, like Revan, Scourge and Meetra challenging novel Vitiate or the strike team somewhat challenging Caedus, although in the latter case Caedus explicitly notes that they were well coordinated. A bunch of randoms facing a character far more powerful than them are just as likely to get in one another's way as they are to add their abilities, particularly in melee, for a few reasons:
1. Lack of coordination. This is clear; they'll likely conflict with one another in their movements.
2. The exponential differences in Force ability. Sidioius's feats in the Force are literally orders of magnitude beyond Dooku's, so having three Dooku's try to Force push him probably won't work, not unless if they can somehow add their powers in a way.
3. Speed. Speed doesn't really add up; the faster combatant and often blitz opponents pretty quickly and it doesn't help them to have lots of people.
4. There's a limit to how many can attack the one opponent at once; at some point, Sidious vs. 50 Agen Kolar's in close quarters might not look that differently if Sidious could maintain his speed because they can't just all hit him at the same time anyway.
Meanwhile, numbers seem to be most important when the team can coordinate, somehow combine their abilities, surround the opponent, or do something else that maximizes the tactical advantages of having the numerical advantage.
What do you think?
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Last edited by The Ellimist on Jul 3rd, 2016 at 01:49 AM
An example being Bane vs Mercs & Cognus, the latter had prep & knowledge, specific weapons(sonics for one), the mercs themselves being hardened vets from fighting the Army of Light, they had spread out in various locations in the building, and they executed an attack with enough precision for Cognus to get within striking distance of Bane.
You can't just have numbers.
Of course this all changes depending on whoever is being attacked.
Last edited by Zenwolf on Jul 3rd, 2016 at 02:06 AM
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The Huntress being able to see the future so well would've certainly helped the planning and coordination of the attack as well.
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It depends on strategy,cunning, and tactics to defeat an enemy when you're out numbered.
Look at the Sith,two against an entire Order of Jedi. The Rule of Two is a perfect example when numbers are overestimated. When the direct route is lost you can always use an indirect method
to victory or survival.
Numbers can increase your chances, hence why Vader trained Galen Mareck, Dooku trained Ventress and Maul trained Savage. Working together, they intended to overthrow Sidious.
I would only add that lightsaber form is also a factor. For example Ataru and Makashi are explictly stated to be ineffective against multiple opponents, and you'll notice that say Dooku and Ahsoka, when combating multiple opponents attempt to divide and conquer rather than engage them all head on.
On the reverse side I'd argue some forms are offensively more effective without backup, for example Djem So is a style geared towards slowly battering your opponent into submission, which doesn't benefit much from having to repeatedly break off your assault for your partner to get in some hits.
For example despite being arguably one of the most coordinated duos in mythos, Anakin always fared better against Dooku without Kenobi's support.
But other than that I agree with all your points. Nice.
Depends! There is no straightforward answer in this case.
There are characters that can eviscerate planetary populations under the right set of circumstances. Darth Nihilus and Valkorion come to mind.
However, anything can happen in a close quarters combat.
Wasn't Count Dooku tasked to lure Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side by Palpatine in this fight?
Well, they managed to press both Sith Lords due to Battle Meditation and this fight didn't end well for Darth Bane in particular.
I actually expect Palpatine to knock Anakin Skywalker out during the course of this fight and focus on Yoda.
Anakin Skywalker is not on the same plane here.
This is not Revan (Reborn); this is a Revan-based entity, an aberration which was the source of great disturbance in the Force that could be felt from anywhere in the galaxy. The entity's dark powers were not only intensified by sheer hatred but the fight took place on one of the focal points of the Dark Side on Yavin IV.
To be honest, this fight has fooled many into assuming that TOR-era greats are fodder without looking at the big picture. Decades before, we saw Satele Shan one-shotting a group of Sith Warriors, toppling a huge tree while being pressed to the ground, exchanging blows with one of the greatest Sith, palming a lightsaber and eviscerating a rocky formation. And she is almost helpless in this fight. Doesn't makes sense.
Essentially, this is (not) normal Revan. This is a Revan-based entity.
Some good points there.
Yes, a Strike Team doesn't guarantee seamless coordination in a fight.
However, several high-tier Force-users can still posit a grave threat to a single foe, no matter how strong and capable.
Vitiate one-shotted a Dark Council in a fight and a Jedi Strike Team in another. However, there were also instances in which he exposed himself to harm by narrowing-down his attention to a single individual.
I still think that Meetra's feat is blown out-of-proportion. She guided her lightsaber towards the position of Vitiate from afar while the latter was fixated on Revan at the time and was about to end his life. Shit happens.
Nobody has perfect combat record.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Dec 25th, 2017 at 02:26 PM
I think numbers are more important when it comes to Non-Force Users than it is to Force Users and it's less important when the power difference is astronomical with Force Users.
Non-Force Users have an advantage of ranged weaponry, gadgets, armor and so on. Their battle kit so to speak could literally be anything they want, this would make for a versatile group of combatants so you wouldn't be able to tell what they could do.
Force Users, you know what to expect, generally just robes and a lightsaber...maybe armor too depending and of course The Force but even this varies depending on what they know/how strong they are. They all can't attack at the same time if half are in melee and half are throwing with Force Powers, this would risk hitting their allies in melee and if the enemy is far more powerful well...then you wouldn't want your allies to get hit so you have to wait for an opening.
Non-Force Users generally don't have to worry because ranged is basically where they sit at for the most part, so friendly fire isn't much an issue for them. They can go melee, but if they do that then they risk the same as the Force Users with getting hit with friendly fire.
Numbers though generally favor Non-Force Users and really this makes sense to counterbalance the power that Force Users have, they have to have some kind of edge even if it's small.
Force Users don't really have to have numbers because they have The Force, numbers can help obviously but it's not as heavy as with Non-Force Users.
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Last edited by Zenwolf on Dec 25th, 2017 at 04:39 PM
Jul 3rd, 2016 01:46 AM
