Basically, my opener will be addressing some of Darth Vader's feats, and then countering it with Revan's.
It's not a complete analysis of Revan vs Darth Vader as you would expect in a blog analysis.
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Darth Vader's telekinetic handling of Starkiller, as attached *here*, is commonly cited as among his most impressive feats. Members typically take it as indication that Darth Vader is on par or superior with Starkiller, and thus can replicate all of Starkiller's feats. Thus, Starkiller's disintegration of a portion of the Salvation is commonly cited as also in Darth Vader's range of ability. However, this way of thinking is inherently flawed under the following bases:
a.) The disintegration of the Salvation is, more than likely, a representation of Starkiller's raw, potential power, and thus not indication of his combat abilities against Darth Vader.
b.) Based on the circumstances, and the lack thereof, of Darth Vader gripping Starkiller through the Force, the feat is anything but indication of telekinetic domination.
In regards to the first point, let's look at the actual text:
The relevant text is highlighted in red. As stated, the circumstances behind the feat demanded Starkiller to fully release his power. The text even states that what he is doing is similar to what he did against Palpatine, which we know was a glimpse of Oneness in which Galen Marek released all of the power within himself (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). While it's evident that Starkiller didn't push himself to the same extent, the fact he recognized he might die in the process and still didn't hesitate points to proof that he was unleashing all of his power he could without any restraint. Now note that Star Wars Insider 100 states Starkiller has the Force potential of Luke Skywalker himself. As per your own admission that Starkiller's combat-applicable powers do not come close to Luke Skywalker's, and the fact that a distinction is blatantly made between Starkiller in his fight with Darth Vader and the destruction of the Salvation, I see no grounds to really attribute the disintegration to Darth Vader in any fashion.
The distinction I mentioned is the following:
- The fight between Darth Vader and Starkiller was primarily a battle of lightsabers, not Force power, as per the text.
- Starkiller was unwilling to sacrifice his life to defeat Darth Vader, because his foremost goal was reaching and attending Eclipse.
Looking back at the cited .gif, there is no indication that Starkiller actively defended himself against Darth Vader's telekinetic grip with anything greater than a Lesser Force Shield. As described in sourcebooks, a Lesser Force Shield is a weaker version of a Force Barrier that a Force user always has defending himself. As implied by the name, the protection offered is significantly weaker than a legitimate Force Barrier, which would be a legitimate expression of the user's power.
Now, this argument is supported threefold:
a.) Starkiller's face is visibly surprised when Darth Vader lifts him.
b.) Darth Vader failed to maintain a constant telekinetic grip over Starkiller. He managed to lift him up and over his head, but the visual .gif makes clear that Starkiller breaks free and leaps down under his own free will. The fact that Darth Vader was unable to subdue or kill Starkiller when he was directly in front of him and incapacitated from the battle is blatant indication that Darth Vader was expending his power to the fullest to maintain his power over Starkiller. Thus, Starkiller breaking away in seconds rejects the notion that the feat suggests Darth Vader is more powerful than Starkiller.
c.) Similar to how Starkiller was taken off-guard by Darth Vader, the novelization paints a picture in which the reason for Darth Vader's defeat is likewise a surprise attack. Starkiller abruptly blasts him with Force lightning, in which the lightning tears through his machinery. Because of the text's lack of mention of Darth Vader shielding himself from the attack, the only defenses that Darth Vader would have had up would have been his Lesser Force Shield. Disputing his means you fully accept that Starkiller's Force lightning is capable of tearing through Darth Vader's legitimate Force barrier, which would be even worse for your cause.
Thus, Darth Vader's handling of Starkiller, while somewhat impression, is exactly like I said: "anything but indication of telekinetic domination." Darth Vader briefly overcoming Starkiller's Lesser Force Shield, only for Starkiller to then break free seconds later, is not that impressive for Darth Vader. Under the basis that a significant distinction between a Lesser Force Shield and your standard Force Barrier is established, scaling derived from Starkiller shielding himself from the immense heat earlier in the novelization is not possible. And as I also mentioned, the fact Darth Vader failed to do anything with his two seconds of glory is even more embarrassing. Now, it's also worth noting of what a Lesser Force Shield awards you. The Force Unleashed comic portrayed a battle in which Galen Marek faces off against a Shadow Guard. While Galen Marek is not yet in his prime, the fact an Shadow Guard was likewise able to telekinetically push Galen Marek further proves that a brief telekinetic manipulation of an individual who only has up a Lesser Force Shield is not a deciding factor (or anything close).
Now, let us compare Darth Vader's feat to one of Revan's greatest:
Revan's initial telekinetic domination of the strike team, in which he pulled them all to the center of the Forgotten Terrace, would have likely been merely stripping away their Lesser Force Shields (besides Satele Shan, who was shielding herself with a Force Protection Bubble). That being said, Revan next used the Force to pin the entire party against conveniently arranged pillars. Revan's command of the Force consistently and constantly kept them incapacitated for an indefinite amount of time that would have stretched on until their death if not for the intervention of the protagonist, as stated in the game. The reason why this is impressive is that the longer a Force user's power overpowers another power, the more time allowed for the latter individual to break free from the former. The only way to break free from a telekinetic grip or related energy powers, that I know of, is to unleash more power internally outward than that which is encasing you (Source: Darth Bane: Rule of Two). In the case of Darth Vader and Starkiller, Starkiller broke free in under a few seconds. In the case of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and Lana Beniko, Revan was able to simultaneously keep hold on all of them without them possibly breaking free with their own power.
Thus, I do not really see much argument on how Darth Vader's feat is the more impressive of the two. Obviously he affected a blatantly and far superior Force-user, but note he *failed* to dominate Starkiller (or come close). Revan, in contrast, successfully dominated the three individuals, all of whom are also impressive Force-users, with Darth Marr and Satele Shan being some of the greatest in the era. Darth Vader has never shown the ability or power to do what Revan has accomplished, whereas a mere Shadow Guard is already coming in the same ballpark to what Darth Vader has done. In a confrontation between Darth Vader and Revan, Revan's feat is proof that Revan can use the Force in the midst of combat to fully bring his power to bare to an extent that we have not seen Darth Vader express against other Force-users. Darth Vader's, in comparison, merely tells us he might be able to briefly lift up a powerful Force-user in the air for two seconds. Darth Vader cannot seize advantage of the situation while doing so - he can merely do the feat. And since Revan's superior Force senses and Battle Precognition will likely allow him to anticipate Darth Vader's attacks to a greater degree than Starkiller, I don't even see Darth Vader doing that to him.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 29th, 2016 at 05:28 AM
(Cont.) Now, let's discuss the mighty cathedral feat, which is probably Darth Vader's most famous accomplishment.
As it stands, I cannot find any quote that states Darth Vader brought down the entire cathedral. I'm inclined to believe that such is something commonly accepted without any legitimate backing. Likewise, note that, based on the comic's portray of the feat, the action was an attempted suicide. As referred to in the Starkiller instance, such a feat is typically anything but indication of powers Darth Vader can unleash in battle.
Now, I'd like to reintroduce Thana Vesh. As a child, Thana Vesh was capable of destroying an entire city block in Dromund Kaas, as per her codex entry. Note that, due to the nature of Kaas City, the city block may have contained entire skyscrapers. After the feat, she honed her skills for decades, becoming a Sith Lord. Despite this, the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox were capable of killing her mid-way through their career. And also despite such, Revan showcased vastly greater abilities than the protagonists. So, the comparison made here is between Revan being head-over-heels greater than someone who can destroy city blocks as a child, and Darth Vader destroying an unknown amount of a cathedral while attempting suicide. Well, it's not really a comparison, because Revan's blatantly the better off here.
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While on the subject of Darth Vader and the Lost Command, it's worth noting of how easily Saro managed to influence Darth Vader telepathically. While it is true that this was done over twenty years before Darth Vader's prime, there is little indication that Darth Vader's ability to resist illusions reached such an extent that he would be able to, say, easily cast away Saro's apparition of Padme. After all, I don't recall any mental resistance feats for Darth Vader, even despite the opportunity being presented when Palpatine lashed out against him across the galaxy. In regards to Darth Vader vs Revan, Revan has shown the ability to telepathically influence Vitiate, forcing him to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant. The relevance of this feat would be Vitiate's superiority to the Dread Masters. The Dread Masters were capable of overcoming the Phobis devices, which were capable of driving every other Sith who studied it insane. These devices are beyond scientific understanding for both the Republic and the Empire alike. Here's a quote concerning them:
Now, note that Vitiate's will was capable of keeping the Dread Masters in check for centuries. Vitiate was also deemed vastly greater than the Dread Masters - a statement that I recall you taking to heart. Thus, Revan influencing Vitiate, who has solidified himself as not only a master telepath but having an nearly unwavering will, is indication that he can likewise affect Darth Vader. After all, refer to Saro. And frankly, Darth Vader has not shown anything to suggest he could handle Revan's telepathic probes or attacks (note that Revan had also drained knowledge from a species declared immune to the Force: the Rakata). In a fight between the two, Revan could easily teleport to the other side of the battlefield and unleash his telepathic and illusionary powers against Darth Vader. Again note that Revan studied a planet-size archive of Sith knowledge on Malachor V, and likewise studied artifacts and teachings found on Korriban and Yavin IV. Darth Bane remarked how Revan knew spells that he would never dare try - spells that Revan can unleash against Darth Vader in battle, given that they are combat applicable. At the very least, Revan's extensive knowledge on Sith Sorcery is further indication in his proficiency in telepathy and Force illusions.
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So, as discussed in my introduction, we have:
- Revan hosting superior telekinetic abilities, as displayed by his domination of Lana Beniko, Satele Shan, and Darth Marr, and his vast superiority to Lana Vesh
- Revan wielding telepathic and illusionary abilities, such as influencing Vitiate, to levels that Darth Vader has never defended himself, which can be a deciding factor
As the debate stretches on, I plan on also discussing Revan's lightsaber abilities, teleportation, battle precognotion, and other central elements to his victory here.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 29th, 2016 at 05:25 AM
That was epic NGL. So epic that Sydicate had to be hospitalized from suffering multiple hemorrhages after all the well written quips toward Starkiller.
Oct 28th, 2016 06:46 PM
