Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Pretty easy for Elliminist to tear that post down, despite how well crafted it was. This'll devolve into the same old stuff, I'm expecting the same counters and arguments that we'be had since those feats came into existence.
I guess we'all never get fresh debates anymore
Good post though
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Let's say that this is true; where is the countermanding demonstration of Revan's raw power that makes us believe they're comparable in that regard? Because when there's much uncertainty, raw power is a very good predictor of who's going to win a fight, and there's little basis to believe that Revan is so much more skilled or developed in his abilities than Vader that he could compensate for a massive difference. See: RotS Anakin.
Courtesy of Beni:
You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.
-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide
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But I think this quibbling is sort of irrelevant in either case. Whether or not Vader can literally ragdoll Starkiller, it's definitely true that he's at least within a small margin of error of him, given that he at least legitimately faces him by TFUII, and then grows substantially more powerful through to RotJ. So the powerscaling from him still functions adequately.
It's also true, as I'm sure you know, that the creators of TFUII stated their intentions to reveal in the third installment that Vader had let himself get captured, that it was all an act, and that he was going to own Starkiller in the third game. This is a reasonable entry to fit into the Legends continuity even though the game was never made because it refers to intentions regarding the event itself (the fight), rather than adding in new events. In this case, we can already see clear hints that Vader let himself lose (the parallels to ANH, the dark side ending, etc.), so in this case we're just looking at a more fleshed out version of asking for authorial clarification, which you're very fond of doing. It's analogous to if Lucas would come out and say outright that Palpatine faked his defeat to Windu; that's something we would certainly have to take seriously.
Well, let's look at other feats of Galen Marek/Starkiller that occur in far less favorable circumstances then.
He can casually Force push hundreds of soldiers away:
Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.
Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.
When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.
Catches tie fighters:
That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIEs came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings.
Only one mooring remained.
Tears apart AT-ST's:
While crossing to the next mooring in line, he detonated fuel tanks and exploded ammunition stores. AT-STs cracked open like seedpods and burst into short-lived flame. He reached his target without encountering serious resistance and brought it down as he had the first.
Explodes an AT-AT:
Behind him, triggered telekinetically, the downed AT-AT exploded, expending all its stored munitions in one blistering blast. Instead of destroying everything nearby, the blast was channeled along the trench and upward, enclosing the two nearby walkers, the stormtroopers firing from the guardrails, and the approaching TIE fighters. A new series of explosions followed the first, and the apprentice felt the superstructure kick beneath him. Fiery debris rained around them as they finally reached the hatch and threw themselves inside.
Since you've just put forward the standard of wanting Force applications done in combat, I would love to see where in the literature Revan one-shots hundreds of soldiers at once, or blows up AT-AT's, or any of the many other actions Galen Marek has done while being shot at from all sides. And what makes this power-scaling even more tilted in Vader's favor is that many of these feats were done early in TFU's storyline, when Galen was nothing next to even that pre-prime Vader.
See my earlier evidence. In either case, if it were easy to penetrate a "lesser force shield", closely matched combatants would use telekinesis far more frequently than they do (see: Anakin vs. Obi Wan on Mustafar where a small push would've knocked the other into the lava). The Bane trilogy makes it clear that penetrating even a passive Force shield is incredibly difficult.
So Vader's fast? Good to hear. In either case, I'm going to snip the rest of this because I don't think the powerscaling off of Vader is dependent on me proving that Vader as of TFUII can literally ragdoll him (although the Prima guide literally uses that term).
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Where is your evidence beyond game mechanics that Revan could've just pinned the strike team indefinitely? Because from the cutscene, all we can say is that Revan was able to push them away after charging his energy, .i.e. not really any less circumstantial than Vader's choking of Starkiller.
It's especially difficult to believe that Revan was really beating them up like you claim given that even the non-Force sensitives weren't harmed by his TK, nor were any of them killed. That suggests that his Force wave wasn't even incapacitating to a regular human, .i.e. that he most likely caught them off guard, or else even a Jedi padawan should've been able to resist his attack.
Let's not try to dodge the contrast in the strength of their opponents by just saying that Revan's were also "impressive Force-users".
When have any of the strike team one-shotted hundreds of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis?
When have any of the strike team powered up ship engines with lightning?
When have any of the strike team redirected a falling star destroyer?
When have any of the strike team blown up AT-AT's with telekinesis?
But more importantly, do you see the strike team doing this even collectively? I'm guessing not, because these combatants are just somewhat weaker in their feats and accolades than Galen Marek; they're orders of magnitude weaker in what they can manipulate with the Force. There's just no comparison between ragdolling them and throwing around one of the most powerful Force users of all time.
If we're going to pick at things like that (mind you, a pre-prime Galen), we could look at Revan being unable to beat a Krayt Dragon, or struggling against Mandolorians, or him vs. Mandalore actually being a fight, etc.
No. All of this is based on the assumption that ragdolling fodder (that they're "impressive" relative to the set of all Force users ever is irrelevant) is more impressive than being stronger than a top-tier Force user, even though said fodder would collectively be unable to replicate the feats that pre-prime Galen does casually.
If you want to continue down this line of reasoning, you'd have to provide a basis for your claim that the strike team > Galen Marek/Starkiller beyond just a guess that numbers overcome quality here. I think I've demonstrated that Galen's feats are far more than six times greater than Satele's, and I see no reason to think that Revan tossing them to the ground once means anything in comparison.
Well, we'd all like evidence that Revan has better Force senses. As for battle precognition, it's difficult to demonstrate that this is going to be a significant turning point. He doesn't seem to use it against Vitiate, or against the Mandos he fights in the same novel, or...anywhere, really. There's just a source claiming that claims he knows it to an unknown extent.
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Last edited by The Ellimist on Oct 30th, 2016 at 06:12 PM
Not really; powerscaling from Galen Marek trumps that. I wasn't going to use it in either case. If you're trying to employ it to place a limit on Vader's abilities, well, as you know it happened faaaaar before his prime.
I would want more details. In what circumstances does she destroy a city block? How long did it take her? What technique did she use? etc.
This seems rather conveniently circular. But you dismissed your own feat quite adequately; it was way before his prime.
Lack of opportunity, but I would note that he was able to pry thoughts from RotJ Luke's mind.
Pre-prime, and regardless Palpatine is the most potent sith telepath in the mythos, given that he could enslave Byss and mind-wipe billions from seeing the Lusankya being buried.
He subtly planted thoughts into Vitiate's mind over the courses of 300 years; weren't you just talking about how some feats are combat applicable and others aren't?
So what? So the Dread Masters have better TP resistance than some unnamed sith lords, therefore Revan can TP Vader?
I think you're going down the wrong tree here. Unless if your goal is to use telepathy as a proxy for raw power, we aren't going to see Revan dominating Vader because a) he never does that, not even to the fodder strike team he faces and b) you need a vast disparity in telepathic power for that to be successful.
If you're using it as a proxy, it's a pretty poor one because it doesn't seem to correlate as well as, say, telekinesis, in which Vader's feats are clearly superior. We see people who are monstrously weaker than another still demonstrate better TP resistance, .i.e. Leia and Vader, Revan and Vitiate, etc.
Oh, come on. Lana Beniko? Darth Marr? As opposed to a guy whose Force lightning can bring down AT-ATs?
If Vader locks up Revan for 300 years then maybe this would be relevant.
OK, time for my offense.
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I think my case will be rather concise, because we both already know the evidence in question:
1. Vader's telekinesis is better, and this probably scales to most other combat-relevant applications like barrier. I am going to be powerscaling from Starkiller/Galen Marek. In comparing TK we can employ two methods:
a) Scaling from their use against combatants. In this case, Vader managing to choke and toss Galen Marek/Starkiller on multiple occasions is far more impressive than Revan being able to pin some non-Force sensitives and powerhouses like Darth Marr:
i) Galen Marek's Force feats are so much superior to the strike team's that the latter's don't seem to have the ability to redirect that star destroyer even if they all did TK on it together.
ii) Vader visibly hurts Galen, while Revan clearly doesn't hurt any of them since even the non-Force sensitives don't suffer any serious injuries from the fight.
iii) Vader does this far before his prime, while Revan does this in his.
b) Just looking at raw environmental feats. In this case, Galen Marek/Starkiller's feats clearly eclipse anything Revan has ever done.
2. Vader is almost certainly a superior duelist, which is going to be the deciding factor if Revan doesn't have a sizable Force advantage:
a) As Anakin, he was regarded by many to be a legendary prodigy duelist who was one of the best ever, the fastest, the strongest, even Dooku was amazed by his abilities. While Vader lost much of his younger self's potential, there's little reason to think he lost that innate technical skill. This is more impressive than Revan's saber accolades because they're sub B-team tier with regards to pure technical skill, tbh. We just know that he was really good; but lots of people in the PT-era were really good duelists, and out of them all Dooku was particularly impressed by Anakin's abilities.
b) Vader just has a lot more experience fighting with his blade.
c) Vader constructed his own lightsaber form that mixed elements from every style within weeks of getting put into a suit.
d) Vader almost certainly has better Force augmentation. That tends to go hand in hand with raw power, of which Vader has more of:
i) He has better TK feats
ii) He likely has more potential, which correlates with raw power, since post-suit Vader's potential was cut "in half" per Lucas, and it used to be double of Sidious's; this suggests that full-potential suit Vader = Palpatine. Revan, meanwhile, has likely achieved far more as a proportion of his potential than Vader has, and yet he still isn't on novel Vitiate's level.
e) Vader benefits from the cumulative knowledge and teachings of the "golden age" of the Jedi, which had thousands of years to develop saber techniques over Revan's era.
f) Though Vader's suit may restrict his mobility, he's already styled his form to cover for that weakness; but Revan won't be used to dealing with the mechanical strength that Vader gets on top of his Force advantage. Vader's suit is also lightsaber resistant.
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I should cover Revan's knowledge of sorcery; Vader knows this too, albeit not to the same degree. But it's enough to render this a moot point, because I'd invite you to come up with instances where Revan actually employ sorcery to an effective extent in a fight; it just doesn't happen. So we defer back to more conventional measures, in which Vader seems to be the clear superior.
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Last edited by The Ellimist on Oct 30th, 2016 at 06:38 PM
It was a solid post actually. I knew he would use Starkiller in his argument as he's pretty important in establishing Vader's telekinetic ability for people who take singular versions of the video game. Just wished he would have noted that Vader's even managing to grip him momentarily in that game version was done only after he had accomplished the frigate feat, fought through the Kaminoan garrison and defeated hordes of his own clones.
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That makes us believe that who is comparable? If you're referring to Revan against Galen Marek, such countermanding demonstration isn't relevant, since the disintegration of the Salvation has no connection with the telekinetic attacks released in battle against Darth Vader. As established in my opening post, the different circumstances forced Starkiller into different mental states, and thus his power was visibly affected appropriately. If you're asking about Revan vs Darth Vader, such a claim seems to come out of left-field, because you'd provided (literally) nothing in support of Darth Vader to even ask for a "countermanding demonstration of Revan's raw power."
However, since you asked, let's look at Darth Nyriss.
So, the importance of this quote is twofold:
a.) Revan, as of the Revan novelization, has fully unlocked his potential, as demonstrated by the fact he is capable of utilizing his raw power in a combat situation in which the text makes note of no unique circumstances. Thus, Revan is capable of bringing his raw power to bare against Darth Vader. The same cannot be said for Galen Marek, who can only unleash his Luke Skywalker-level potential in moments of absolute clarity or life-defying moments. This is relevant considering the following point:
b.) Revan's raw power, when applied for a fraction of a second, is greater than that of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy, who channeled her power for twenty seconds. Furthermore, Revan's fraction of a second power is capable of instantly disintegrating the Sith Lord in question. Despite being in a wealth of combat situations, neither Darth Vader nor Starkiller has ever displayed the ability to disintegrate a powerful Force-sensitive in combat. Thus, I ask you on what basis should we believe that Darth Vader, a shadow of this former self, has greater raw power than Revan, considering Revan has a blatantly greater demonstration of raw power.
The quote provided does not contradict the following assessments:
a.) Darth Vader merely overpowered Starkiller's Lesser Force Barrier, which is stated to be "not particularly strong" and demonstrably such.
b.) Starkiller broke free from Darth Vader's grip in under a few seconds, thus demonstrating his ability to overpower Darth Vader's energy with that of his own.
Again, simply refer to the actual feat, in which Starkiller visibly breaks free and leaps down on his own free will.
In the following .gif you provided, note that not only did Starkiller break free from Darth Vader's telekinetic hold, but he likewise then Force pushed Darth Vader.
That's an extremely relevant factor. And to answer your question: no, he cannot.
Starkiller has consistently shown the ability to break free from Darth Vader's feeble attempts.
Under the basis you state that Darth Vader is within the margin of error with Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II, you immediately concede that Darth Vader's displays against Starkiller in the game are not that of telekinetic domination. That being said, the main quote that states Darth Vader increased substantially in power over the course of the Original Trilogy is from Fightsaber. The quote is contradicted by The Force Unleashed II, because it states that they are "shadows of their former selves" under the basis that they have not fought in many years. Considering that Darth Vader fought Starkiller only a year prior to his confrontation with Ben Kenobi, the quote is retconned by a higher and newer source. Next, the Fightsaber quote stating that Darth Vader "grew more formidable" since the Battle of Yavin is specifically referring to "greater mastery over himself and over the Force" and the fact that "he has advanced his lightsaber technique." Note that neither statement has anything to do with Force power, which is what is relevant against Starkiller. Thus, all we have is sourcebooks stating that Darth Vader is more powerful following the Battle of Yavin IV, which frankly might not even be referring to Force power, and then Darth Vader stating that he is more powerful now than he ever was in Return of the Jedi. Note that the power increase here does not allow not demand that Darth Vader even be "substantially" more powerful than Starkiller, let alone to the degree of telekinetic domination.
Well for one, "there might have been thousands of them" is the textbook example of an exasperated hyperbole, so I see no reason to believe there were even hundreds. Second, note that the guardians were "held together" by Paratus' command of the Force. Thus, Galen Marek releasing a blast greater than that of Paratus' hold should just render the "soldiers" as mere pieces of metal. So, while this feat is impressive, let's not act like it's anything unprecedented.
No, that never happened in your quote.
The quote you provided has Galen Marek nudging one Tie-Fighter into another, not catching multiple fighters. The distinction is significant.
No, that never happened in your quote.
The text specifically states that the AT-ST had just been blown up by "fuel tanks and exploded ammunition stores," and thus his telekinesis did not encounter any "serious resistance."
No, that never happened. in your quote.
Galen Marek exploded "the charges" found in the AT-ST's "munitions bay." This was done by "rigging a simple mechanical switch," in which he then "triggered telekinetically."
So, really, all three feats you mentioned are not true. That being said, Revan has done the following:
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It's Revan's classic telekinesis feat, really. In it, Revan brings down forty asteroids, accelerating them at a speed in which they pulverize on impact. Now, the typical rebuttal to this is that it's merely game mechanics and they they didn't actually disintegrate. However, those who have this argument have no proof that this is the reasoning of why the asteroids blew up in pieces, and thus it's nothing more than a baseless assumption. In contrast, the Assault of Tython flashpoint blatantly shows lasting animation for rocks falling on the ground, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A15...X0&t=30m03s. Thus, it is established that the animation exists if the makers wished to portray the rocks as simply landing there, but instead they opted for a unique animation that shows the rocks blow up. Note that over the course of the years, instead of changing the animation to that of the Assault of Tython, they have only further improved the animation of the rock disintegration. In other words, the feat is real, and dismissing it as game mechanics is not legitimate considering it's featured in a canonical source. A direct quote from a canonical authority would be required for the feat to be dismissed, which you don't have.
Now, I'd be interested if Starkiller has showed the ability to do that, in which case he hasn't.
It's only hard to penetrate a "Lesser Force Shield" in the sense that it's hard to catch someone off-guard, not that dominating it is difficult. After all, the barrier is explicitly "not particularly strong." In the instance with Skywalker vs Kenobi, they actively defended against all of the other's attacks, thus why neither pushed them into the lava. It's an incredible display of focus and mastery. Again, a Shadow Guard was capable of overcoming pre-prime Galen Marek's Lesser Force Shield. Also, instinctual or last-second Force barriers, which the Darth Bane trilogy is famous for, is different than Lesser Force Shields. Starkiller can't claim the former because he was visibly surprised following the initial energy grasp and nothing stated he used such.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
"Evidence beyond game mechanics" is not demanded because the feat is canonical. It's featured in a canonical source, after all. Absolutely nothing states that the feat is non-canon, especially considering the fight has story significance. That being said, the official game description of Revan's power states that it is "destroying all" and that "the strike team is being slowly destroyed." Thus, the strike team would have been pinned indefinitely until they were killed.
Revan's telekinetic push of the strike team, as displayed at the start of the battle, and his telekinetic domination of the strike team, as displayed during the middle of the battle, are completely different events.
The Hero of Tython was visibly injured by Revan's telekinetic attack and struggled to stand. Likewise, the non-Force sensitives are typically equipped with energy defenses, shield generators, and heavy armor. They're blatantly well more equipped than your "average human," and frankly moreso than some of the Force-sensitives present. That being said, the strike team would have been completely killed if not for them being freed, so making the argument that Revan couldn't kill them is false. Revan opted to "destroy" the team "slowly" once he had them incapacitated, rather than instantly kill them. Revan's tactics is to blame there, not his power. Furthermore, Revan actually did kill eight non-Force sensitives during the battle, so your claim is false regardless. Even besides game mechanics, which is both legitimate and canonical, below are audible quotes by the characters during the fight with Revan. This is apart of the overall script of the mission, and thus is not limited to any anti-gameplay prejudice:
Here, we have Lana Beniko remarking how powerful Revan is, completely awed by his power. We also have Lana Beniko telling her teammates to continue fighting, making clear that there resolve is wavering under his power.
Next, we have Darth Marr likewise remarking that Revan is strong in the Force. This is relevant considering how rare it is for an opponent to praise another in the midst of combat. Darth Marr is clearly taken aback by Revan's power.
Satele Shan is calling out, seemingly to the Force itself, for additional strength. The next line makes it clear she's having difficulty even talking, and like Lana Beniko, is encouraging the strike team to push forward through Revan's power.
Finally we have Shae Vizla. The above quote makes blatantly obvious that Revan gave the strike team a legitimate and true fight, with Vizla even remarking how "tough" he is when fighting over half-a-dozen of the galaxy's finest. So really, the script is consistent with the gameplay mechanics that Revan posed an immense threat to the strike team. The strike team was in awe over Revan's power and had to encourage its members to continue fighting. Thus, your arguments attempting to diminish Revan's accomplishments are blatantly false.
You're severely underestimating the strike team.
Darth Marr: To truly appreciate Darth Marr's abilities, let's look at Teneb Kel. He was capable of accomplishing the following: https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/feat10.jpg. Now, note that terentatek are stated to be a match for an entire squad of Jedi and are resistant to the Force. Despite this, Teneb Kel (aka. Darth Thanaton) destroyed him anyway. With Kel's prodigious power being established, Darth Marr had the power to destroy Teneb Kel with lightning, as shown here: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...r+lightning.png. This is more impressive than bringing down a disabled AT-ST with lightning. It's a blatant and direct display of formidable power.
Darth Marr also absolutely humiliated Darth Lachris in combat. He was capable of moving so fast that it appeared he teleported. His telekinesis and lightning were likewise able to instantly dominate her. Now, note that Darth Lachris was capable of contending with Act II Barsen'thor in combat. Refer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5gUAMn2Qmc&t=2m00s, in which Darth Lachris' lightning is visibly pressing the Barsen'thor.
Now, compare the contest to this, in which Lachris' entire Force storm could only get a twitch from Darth Marr's leg. Remember that the Barsen'thor has performed the following feats before or around her fight with Darth Lachris: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...79360-M6VaQ.gif and http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...16447-mGRd9.gif. All-in-all, between Darth Marr is blatantly an immensely powerful Force-user, capable of dominating Darth Lachris and Teneb Kel, both with impressive feats in their own right, with ease. Just as you asked rhetorical questions to me, I ask the following:
When has Galen Marek one-shot a Sith Lord who can one-shot a ternetatek?
When has Galen Marek one-shot a Sith Lord who can press the Rakatan-wall busting Barsen'thor?
Satele Shan: My argument for this is two-fold. First, Satele Shan showed the ability to absorb a lightsaber with her bare hands. For some reason members like to act like this isn't impressive, but it's blatantly immensely impressive. After all, it's stating that it's "virtually impossible" to absorb Force lightning with tutaminis, in which only "the most powerful Jedi" can do so. Now, considering absorbing a lightsaber is even more unprecedented, this is a blatant demonstration of substantial power. Secondly, an unnamed Jedi Knight was capable of bringing down two buildings with the Force, while in the midst of combat, without any noted difficulty. Now, note that prior to the Galactic War, Satele Shan was the foremost Jedi warrior of her time. Thus, it seems apparent that she can, likewise, display a similar, if not substantially greater feat. And now, bringing down two buildings is far more impressive than bringing down a disabled and damaged AT-ST.
Lana Beniko: While the following feat was done a decade after the Shadow of Revan expansion, I still feel it's impressive enough to cite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZC...gQ&t=13m39s. Here we see Lana Beniko throwing back four Force-sensitive Zakuul Knights. Additional feats from Lana Beniko include killing numerous Revanites with lightning, having "lightning-fast" speed, dismantling Imperial soldiers with ease, etc. Point is, while she's not incredibly powerful, she's greater than your average Sith Lord.
Before I move on, to address the Star Destroyer thing, it can't be attributed to something with Darth Vader's capabilities in a combat situation. Why? Because Galen Marek was visibly affecting it for a great deal of time. As stated in The Jedi Path, almost anything is accomplishable given enough concentration, dedication, and time. The point of combat is to see what you can unleash in a fraction of a second, not over a long period of time. Every additional second added to a feat makes it less and less usable for an actual fight. If a Force-user channels his power for sixty seconds, that's really over sixty times what their combat-applicable power is going to demonstrate. In the case of Galen Marek and the Star Destroyer feat, the same applies.
Now, considering the feats these three bring to the table individually, consider what they can do united. Likewise note that Satele Shan provided Battle Meditation, which would have allowed the team to work in near-perfect coordination with one-another. So, considering they have performed feats that Darth Vader nor Starkiller hasn't displayed alone, united they are definitely a very powerful trio. Note that they don't have to be more powerful than Starkiller for my point to hold value. They just have to be powerful enough that Revan dominating all three of them simultaneously to the point where they are absolutely incapacitated is greater than Darth Vader choking Starkiller for two seconds before breaking free. As DarkDefender stated, Starkiller had just disintegrated a portion of the Salvation and fought through an army of also his clones and Darth Vader beforehand, so he's anything but in peak condition.
I hate to break the news to you all, but they are powerful enough for the former feat to be more impressive than the latter, as established by the feats above.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Yes, we are going to "pick at things like that." I'm not sure why you thought we weren't?
Revan was "unable to beat a Krayt Dragon" during his visit to Tatooine. Now, note that Tatooine was the first world that Revan visited on his Star Forge journey. Following such, he also went to Korriban, Manaan, the Leviathan, Korriban, Lehon, and finally the Star Forge itself. Revan increased tremendously in power as he went from one place to the next. Thus, bashing Revan as of Tatooine has no relevance to this battle, since it's effectively hammering like Galen Marek when he was a child. In contrast, the Shadow Guard instance was close to the end of the game. In regards to the Mandalorians, that never happened. Revan ducking for cover isn't indication that he's struggling. Finally, Mandalore was greater than any Jedi during the era besides Revan, so I have no clue why being in a legitimate fight with Mandalore is not impressive. That being said, Mandalore was "no match" for Revan anyways, so your point is false.
Revan has shown the ability to expand his senses across the galaxy, and in which find particular individuals he never once interacted with before (i.e. Tari Darkspanner).
Please read the following:
According to the above source, a large factor in Luke Skywalker's triumph over Darth Vader (which is the context of the quote) would be predicting attacks before they happen with his standard Force-based precognition. Considering Revan Force senses are capable of stretching across the galaxy, and that Revan likewise has battle precognition, it's clear it's going to be a blatant advantage. Revan should be able to predict nearly every attack against him long before it happens. Unless you're significantly faster than Revan with a lightsaber (ex. Palpatine, Yoda, etc.), how can you hope to out-duel an opponent who is always one step ahead of you?
That being said, battle precognition wasn't that relevant in his fight with Vitiate because battle precognition has to do with physical and melee contests, not Force battles. That being said, the text made note of Revan anticipating many of Vitiate's attacks before they happened and associating gestures and movements with follow-up powers. Revan can do similar against Darth Vader, although his highly attuned senses should do the trick regardless.
False. Numerous sources state that he knows it, and they all state that he is the foremost and absolute master of it.
According to the above, a Force user can resist telekinetic attacks by sheer willpower. This ability, known as Force of Will, is stated to be a common and easy power. Now, I imagine everyone knows where I'm going with this. Revan's willpower feats in Star Wars are among the best, if not the absolute best. Revan showed the ability to resist Malachor V, Korriban, Nathema, the Star Forge, and both Vitiate and the Dread Masters for three centuries. He also managed to resurrect his corpse back from the dead, powering his body with his passion for revenge. And as per the above source, this is also translatable into an actual battle. Darth Vader will not only have to overpower Revan's Force barriers, which he hasn't displayed the ability to, but also his willpower, which he cannot accomplish by any stretch of imagination. Revan will power through any telekinetic attack that Darth Vader has to offer him without having to raise a single defense.
Now, let's paint a picture. Eight of the galaxy's greatest champions, including the Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Darth Nox, and the Emperor's Wrath, confront Revan on the Temple of Sacrifice. During the battle, Revan calls upon the font of power near him and begins to channel enough energy to destroy all life in a one kilometer radius. Before he is done, the team forces the energy to backlash into him. Instead of instantly dying, which is what should have happened, Revan rose again and continued fighting. Next, when the Machine Core was rendered unstable, in which it began to strip away Revan's "life force." After it's destruction, in which Revan was bested by the team, Revan teleported to the Forgotten Terrace. Note that throughout the battle Revan received a host of additional injures. At the Forgotten Terrace, he fought the coalition strike team. After losing, he managed to rise again shortly thereafter, ready to fight again.
To summarize the above, Revan is an absolute tank, which is consistent with the Force of Will ability cited above. Revan's body and durability is directly tied to his willpower, which is without precedent.
As I also pointed out, there's no indication his willpower increased to the degree that he could, say, easily resist Sarro's illusions.
Which has nothing to do with mental resistance. That being said, sources state that Luke Skywalker could easily resist Darth Vader's influence.
False. Revan influencing of the Treaty of Coruscant was separate from Revan's long, subtly planted thoughts. The latter was eventually overcome by Vitiate, hence the Great Galactic War. When the Sith conquered Coruscant, Revan suddenly influenced Vitiate again, forcing him to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant. It's frankly a feat teetering on mind-control. Darth Vader has never showed the ability he can come close to resisting something like this. Revan will dominate Darth Vader's mind quickly and brutally.
What a lame attempt at dismissing a feat. The Dread Masters wield greater mental resistance than any Sith who ever dared master the Phobis Devices. This is an accolade that Darth Vader cannot claim for himself. Frankly, Darth Vader cannot claim any accolade or feat involving telepathic resistance for himself. So yes, under the basis Darth Vader has shown absolutely nothing besides being humiliated by Sarro, and yet the Dread Masters are performing unprecedented feats centuries before their prime, this is extremely relevant. Thus, considering Revan can influence Vitiate, who is even greater than the Dread Masters, influencing Darth Vader will be accomplished easily.
The quote states that Skywalker's chance of being two times more powerful than the Emperor is gone, and thus he's only about eighty percent. It doesn't state that Skywalker's potential was cut in half, so this is not a legitimate arugment. Refer to my argument in the first post of this response to see why Revan's raw power is greater.
I countered everything stated here in the previous posts. To summarize the primary themes of the discussion:
- Revan's telekinetic domination of the strike team is greater than Darth Vader's against Galen Marek, as per a host of reasons cited above.
- Revan's telepathy is something that Darth Vader has not shown the ability to resist, nor can we assume he can resist with it without adequate evidence.
- Revan's lightning, which would be capable of instantly disintegrating Darth Nyriss, is beyond what Darth Vader has ever defended against in battle.
- Revan's willpower alone, which is perhaps the greatest ever, will resist any telekinetic attack Darth Vader unleashes against him.
With all of these factors combined, Revan vastly outclasses Darth Vader in a Force competition. He has more powers to call upon and is better at them.
Now, I'll respond to the lightsaber portion of the discussion, which I'll write up after I post this. Please wait until that is posted too before you make a rebuttal.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 30th, 2016 at 11:58 PM
@Ant, to chip in a quip, how does your analysis of Revan's ragdolling square with your claim that he absorbed >97% of Vitiate's lightning? If defenses really worked that way, you'd expect even 0.1% of Revan's power to insta-kill all the non-Force sensitive members of the strike team and potentially everyone else too.
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Going into this, I know that most people here consider Darth Vader a superior duelist to Revan. Frankly, I don't understand why.
Throughout Darth Vader's entire career, here's what he has to show for himself:
- Killing a considerable amount of Jedi throughout the Great Jedi Purge, although suffering humiliating loses and injures along the way.
- Showcasing an edge over Ben Kenobi in combat, but in reality he was an inferior pure swordsman, as stated in the following scan:
- Growing in skill since his confrontation with Ben Kenobi by an unknown degree.
- Being pressed in battle against Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back, despite Luke having virtually no skill with a lightsaber blade:
- Being defeated in battle against Luke Skywalker in Revenge of the Jedi, despite Luke being less experience and rarely tested:
So really, I ask, where is this Darth Vader praise coming from? Sure, he has considerable accolades, but so does Revan.
Much of Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber technique and mastery was in his "innate technical skill." All of his reflexes, speed, and strength was ultimately rooted in Force potential unlike anything the galaxy has ever seen before. When that's stripped away, I don't see how the "innate technical skill" would continue. Darth Vader would maintain Anakin Skywalker's practiced technical skill, but the innate, rooted and dependent on his potential, would be gone. Considering that Darth Vader completely changed his style to accommodate his significant handicaps anyway, the knowledge of his former style would really only be relevant if Revan opts to use Djem So against Darth Vader.
I would actually argue that experience is one of the central factors in Revan's victory. Revan has, indisputably, fought more lightsaber-wielding foes than Darth Vader. He butchered "many" Jedi during his career as a Sith Lord, Darth Malak on his flagship, dueled Bastila Shan and Juhani on Dantooine, killed three Dark Jedi on Tatooine and Kashyyk, slaughtered an embassy of Sith on Manaan, fought through the Leviathan's entire Dark Jedi defenses, killed over two-hundred Sith on Korriban, "dozens" upon "dozens" on the Star Forge, Bastila Shan again, super-charged and "virtually unstoppable" Darth Malak, and then the Foundry and Yavin IV strike teams. I mean, there's no contest.
Revan, likewise, has a lightsaber form that mixes styles from not just all the lightsaber forms, but also Echani and Mandalorian fighting style.
I encourage all reading this thread to read (or re-read) my analysis on Revan's lightsaber abilities, which can be found by clicking *here*.
Since Revan has greater raw power over Darth Vader, as established in my posts above, he should also have superior Force augmentation. It should also be stressed that Revan has blatantly superior speed accomplishments. Perhaps Darth Vader's best is appearing to teleport in the eyes of a non-Force sensitive. Darth Marr likewise could seemingly teleport, but instead in the eyes of the power Darth Lachris. Now, note that Revan was capable of fighting Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, the Hero of Tython, Jakarro, Theron Shan, and Shae Vizla simultaneously. The level of speed demanded for that, in which explosives, blaster fire, Force attacks, and lightsaber blades would be coming from every direction, is completely beyond Darth Vader's demonstrated capabilities. And as you all know, I can provide a plethora of quotes stating that Darth Vader is actually relatively slow.
Can you further support the claim that techniques were further honed across the centuries?
Also, as I stated before, Revan benefits from the additional knowledge of the Mandalorian and Echani cultures.
Why wouldn't Revan be able to handle his mechanical strength? Revan's greater power should allow him to augment his strength beyond that of Darth Vader's robotic limbs.
--- --- ---
Now, my argument for Revan's lightsaber abilities is fivefold:
1.) Out of the gate, Darth Vader does not have superior lightsaber showings to Revan. Again, refer to the beginning of this final post, but Darth Vader's best feat is frankly being somewhat superior to Old Ben Kenobi by the time of Return of the Jedi. Considering the fact the Obi-Wan Kenobi made note of the fact he was getting rusty just two years into his exile, I can't imagine the downgrade after nearly two decades. In contrast, Revan is literally tearing apart entire armies, his offensive capabilities without flaw. Besting Darth Malak, who was labeled as "virtually unstoppable," while the Star Forge severely handicapped Revan's Force augmentation capabilities, is a testament of skill that Darth Vader has never displayed. Really, I ask the reader on how Darth Vader's performance against Galen Marek (who's best feat is, what, fighting Shaak Ti?), Obi-Wan Kenobi (decades after his prime), or Luke Skywalker (who "challenged" Darth Vader without any training) is more impressive than Revan destroying an entire of Star Forge battle droids, an entire army of Dark Jedi, Bastila Shan, an entire army of even greater Star Forge battle droids, and then finally Darth Malak. It's not!
2.) Revan's superior Force augmentation will make Darth Vader's speed and strength advantage mute. Likewise, Revan's greater experience will benefit him in the battle, as made clear by a quote mentioned above directly stating that experience and strength were the foremost edges that Darth Vader had over Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.
3.) Battle precognition will allow Revan to predict Darth Vader's moves before they happen without even needing his Force senses. With his Force senses, which can stretch across the galaxy, he's really going to know everything that's coming at him. And no, Revan knowing battle precognition is not disputable. Revan being the foremost master of it is consistently stated in a wealth of sources. And finally, it's the entire idea of battle precognition is to predict melee and physical attacks before they happen, so I have no clue how some attempt to argue that it's greatest practitioner won't be able to do it here.
4.) Teleportation. This isn't an original argument, but its completely unavoidable. Revan has shown the ability to teleport in the midst of combat, navigating through the battlefield as the strike team attacked him. If he is ever pressed by Darth Vader in combat, he can instantly teleport away to the other side of the battlefield. As Darth Vader moves across the vast distance between them, as established by the rules of the debate, Revan will have time to either batter Darth Vader with the Force or reassess his lightsaber style. Thus, Darth Vader's chances of ever striking a killing blow would be dramatically reduced. This leads me to my next point...
5.) Nothing sure of a direct decapitation can defeat Revan. His body is directly tied to his willpower, and as I established in my posts above, he can handle virtually anything. Wounds that would typically incapacitate or kill any other individual would be dismissed by Revan, who's already faced and overcame death itself. Now, considering all of the additional factors above, the chances of Darth Vader being killed are incalculably higher. Thus, Revan will be able to best Darth Vader in a lightsaber contest. Now, note that he doesn't need to anyway, since his Force powers can easily do the trick.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 31st, 2016 at 05:04 AM