It's based on the idea that 'powerful' can only indicate Force Power which is nothing short of limited thinking especially if you read the Bane Trilogy.
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For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
--Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient."
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Also, the dark side transferred from one apprenticel to the next upon killing their Master's. They grew in raw Force power with each generation. Bane was right: the Force is venom.
DD9 has been arguing about the ambiguity of the quotes for months now. Back when Silver was still on the Vine. It's abundantly clear what they're referring to.
It's funny that only quotes that someone doesn't like are ambiguous. What about the dozen other quotes claiming people to be this and that powerful? Yeah, let's ignore them next.
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"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
I could care less if the quote is valid or not, my ranking of these characters stay the same, I just don't agree with the proposed context. That quote is from 2001 before the Sith Order was fleshed out properly and the Bane trilogy makes it very clear how Bane prefers to create an Order which is based on stealth, manipulation,... rather than all out war (combative Force Power) yet the primary function would be to increase in Force Power? Seems very odd amd unlogical. I'll go even further om this, why would Bane in DoE think Zannah's unworthy as his successor despite acknowledging her greater power? Or why would he despise Kas'im for confronting him honorably rather than stabbing him in the back? Or why would he praise Githany for trying to poisem him rather than confronting him in a duel? There are countless arguments that go against your interpretation of the quote, odd again.
What's even more remarkable is that the giys who actually have an agenda accuse me of having one. I mean it's not going to affect Ezra or Kylo Ren or Maul or ... No but it's definitely going to be a problem for the Tenebrous - Plagueis - Palpatine supporters and who could that be...
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Just to make it clear, to me the idea of Banite scaling is bullshit too, but this is where we find ourselves.
That argument doesn't really hold true, given how the Jedi were not at all as combat focussed as the Sith, it makes sense that the combative prime of the general Jedi Order was during a period of war (KOTOR era or PT era) as that is the only time the order would really focus on combat. This compared to the Sith who would always focus on combative displays of power, less on History, Politics and Philosophy as the Jedi too.
And I'd draw your attention to the quote Azronger posted tbh, where a direct correlation between knowledge and power is made.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
I neat sentiment Tony, but based largely on conjecture and running counter to the facts.
First of all let's start with the reality that this was how the Rule of Two was intended to work. That with every generation the apprentice would surpass the master. To accept that each successively Sith Lord was more powerful than the last is therefore simply to accept that the Rule of Two was successful, something rather self-evident, I would think.
Moreover, it was Bane specifically that came up with the idea. And funnily enough, he didn't share these concerns. Indeed, let's revisit the crux of Bane's philosophy:
Practically speaking this only makes a modicum of sense, in the respect that it prevents infighting, however in the real world we don't create institutions where only a select group of people are able to study the subject, for the purposes of maximising their skill and intelligence - instead we encourage knowledge to be shared among as many people as we can, and that actually works to our benefit.
However when we consider the cosmological aspect of the Force, it actually stands to reason that a smaller number of Sith would cause the dark side to quite literally become more concentrated around them, to in fact coalesce and centre itself around the individual, who indeed "contains all the power of the dark side" in a very literal respect. We see this in practice in Darth Plagueis repeatedly. For example when Plagueis and Sidious kill their masters, and become the galaxy's sole Sith Lord, (indeed becoming that "One Master") they not only experience a rush of Force induced euphoria, but become physically more powerful:Palpatine going into even greater detail in describing how the dark side shifted to center around him:Moreever Plagueis talks about induction into the Order as as the dark side "taking an interest", coalescing around them to anoint the Sith Lord as among its foremost recipients:When considered in this sense, the idea of "all of the power" of the dark side being contained with a set of individuals starts to take on a very literal shape.
It also stands to reason that these effects would not be present had the Sith Lord numbered in legions (and have nowhere else been displayed), that Plagueis, Sidious & the like may not have become nearly as powerful had this system not existed and instead been one Sith Lord among many. Point being here that though it is true that prodigies in the Force are statistically rare, arguably the very architecture of the Rule of Two ensured that any member deemed worthy of induction would be capable of achieving similarly prodigal power regardless, simply by having the dark side so concentrated around them. This is why and how, the Rule of Two worked. Indeed:Now let's consider another point, namely that despite the supposed rarity of those "supremely strong" in the Force, the Banite Sith that we know seemed to have no trouble finding powerful apprentices. Sidious stumbled upon Maul on Dathomir, and indeed found a fellowship in Dooku who just happened to be perfectly poised to defect to the Sith, Plagueis chanced upon Sidious himself on Naboo, Bane ran into Zannah within hours of fashioning his doctrine, and indeed the Huntress fell into their path as well. The only known exception to this is Plagueis, who was engineered by Tenebrous, but only then to be "strong in the Force", not some kind of prodigal being. Moreover in many of these cases those discovered by the Sith are not perceived as prodigies or outliers, but also merely "strong in the Force."
From this I would infer a couple things:
1. The criteria for being a worthy addition to the Sith Order is not significant, you needn't be a prodigy, nor do the Sith seem to spend much time looking for them, instead simply being "strong in the Force" will do. Ergo, the training, knowledge, and cosmic significance of the Rule of Two itself, is sufficient to shape any reasonably powerful being into something exceptional.
2. The dark side is again, working in concert with the Banite Sith, it is not coincidence that they happened to stumble upon these ideal beings, but fate. Individuals worthy of joining the ranks of the Rule of Two are drawn in by its power and centrality, which makes finding the right beings from a pool of gazillions much easier.
Finally there is left little room for intepretation when it comes to the statements in question, specifically:Is quite clearly referring to Force ability, their increased power being correlated with their "knowledge of the dark side" makes this indisputable. Alternative readings will only run afoul of mental gymnastics if not willfully induced stupidity. DD9's assertion that it refers to them becoming more smart at being evil schemers can be dismissed as the ramblings of an egit. Sidious describing himself as a recipient of Bane's power being dine as an annotation from the Book of Sith extract from above, namely, Bane's treatise on the Force and it's nature, which is, FYI: the true power of the Sith, obviously. Nor is knowledge of the dark side knowledge of cunning or manipulation, but the dark side.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Apr 6th, 2017 at 12:40 PM
To wrap up I'll address a couple of Anthony's points directly:Conjecture, we have no clear means of determining how much powerful Vitiate was in regards to Bane, so these assertions are beyond baseless. That said, assuming each generation of Banite Sith grew in power by 5%, the last Sith in the Line would be 4+ times more powerful than Bane, a 7.5% increase, 8, 9 times more powerful, a 10% increase, 17 times. I consider these all to be reasonable figures considering Bane was ultimately a knat in comparison to Palpatine's power.
Sidious never refers to Bane's powers in semi-awe, at least not to my knowledge. We only have Plagueis describing how he'd become deified as a legend, in which respect besides the fact that legends can be exaggerated (certainly, the feats achieved by Gravid, Ramage & Tenebrous' master are much more worthy of recognition than hurling couches...), Tempest has already nixed this point already: I have nothing more to add.
Yeah, Bane thought that. This isn't Bane, though. This is a quote, and said quote refers to knowledge of the Dark Side giving them power.
Bane can have his pespective; the quote is obviously referring to actualized power in the Force. It's canon, no matter how much you all want to ramble about it.
Not at all. Bane's intention was to create a more powerful individual; not just a more cunning one, but one who is also a superior Force user. He did just that, and so did all his successors.
Apr 6th, 2017 07:25 AM
