Age might not have an impact on only Force speed, but also general Force connectivity and/or combat effeciency. ANH Kenobi and Yoda are examples of age having a negative impact, whereas Dooku and Sidious, as you mentioned, are opposite. It might only be negative in the case of Jedi, maybe it's dependent on the individual or it might be another wholly inconsistent issue in the mythos. My guess is option three, but regardless, why would Force speed be entirely dependent on ''combat power'' (which is a far too broad and vague term in itself), as opposed to just about every other Force technique, where mastery of said technique is the reason for ones skill with it?
I wouldn't doubt it. There's too many inconsistencies across the different continuities and authors to rely on one single quote/source anyway, but I don't see any reason as to why the quickness of a Force user is determined by their Force power.
Here the text also strongly hints at speed being her advantage, whereas his was strength:
Your argument that he would be slower because he prioritized strength isn't very convincing. She was simply quicker than him.
So what? Beyond proving that speed is directly connected to ones overall Force power level, prove that the power gap between two Force adepts is relevant to whether or not their speed is directly connected to their power levels.
If Malgus' edge is strength and Leneer's edge is speed, then it seems clear they prioritize those abilities (assuming they are similar in power when the comparisons are made as Neph said).
The connection between power and speed is just as strong as power and strength, after all.
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Confirmation bias, bro. There's nothing in the text hinting at them prioritizing different abilities. What the text DOES hint is that she was faster but he was stronger (''she answered his strength with his speed'', not why that is the case.
You haven't proved (in this thread) that power and speed are correlated, and now you're also bringing up strength in the same manner? ...
Last edited by Sirion_Of_Doom on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 08:17 PM
I'm drawing a logical conclusion based on what we know.
Factually, comparably powerful Force users will have comparably powerful amounts of Force energy flowing into them. Therefore, in the case of Malgus and Leener, we can conclude Malgus puts more energy into augmenting strength whereas Leener augmenting speed. The text doesn't need to state anything besides stating they are comparably powerful with each having an edge in different areas. The conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
I'm asking for an example where we have something that directly contradicts (i.e. burden of proof is on you) this line of thinking - and hopefully multiple examples so it's not just one inconsistency. In this instance, I can reasonably insert this fight into my perception of how augmentation works and it fits perfectly fine, hence my point.
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Last edited by Jaggarath on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 08:19 PM
Malgus is pretty obviously a Djem So/Shien practitioner while Leneer is most likely an Ataru one. Prioritisation of certain skills is obviously a factor in lightsaber combat based upon your combat style.
lmao so then by that logic why do combatants bother to train specific Force techniques and close quarters combat if it's 100% a function of your overall reserves?
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Force-backed enhancements (precognition, speed, strength, etc.) are only half (not exactly - depends on case to case) of the equation.
The other half is, obviously, actual skill, hence the need for training and improvement.
Valkorion obviously isn't as proficient as Maul with a lightsaber, but he is stronger and faster - strong and fast enough to completely circumvent Maul's skill advantage, even in CQC, in my books.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
And you're still assuming that Force augmentation is purely a function of overall Force reserves. Never mind how that explains Raskta Lsu, or Luke matching Vader as a duelist (and in Force augmentation given their deadlocking) but being vastly inferior in telekinesis per his own admission in RotJ, or why Force users bother to train for specific Force abilities at all.
From what we see of him, novel Vitiate's in-practice combat awareness is atrocious, with him getting tagged on multiple occasions by inferior Force users (Revan, Meetra) and almost getting incinerated by T3, despite having literally the best possible tactical starting position for his abilities (a long walkway).
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No, because, again, you haven't proved that a connection between a persons amount of Force energy within and the ''level'' of that persons speed exists. Your entire premise that you are basing your argument is not proven. More to the point, you might as well say that everything a Force adept can do is directly based on their overall power, because you have also not pointed out a difference between speed and any other power, such as telekinesis, or Force drain, or whatever else.
?
The text doesn't owe their different edges to them focusing more power in that area. That's something you're making up to suit your agenda. It is completely unsupported in the text.
Since when did lightsaber form have anything to do with speed? Anakin uses Djem So, yet he is almost certainly faster (by quite a bit) than Qui-Gon, who uses Ataru. Plagueis disliked lightsaber combat altogether, yet was still incredibly fast. Prove that Malgus was slower than Aryn because he somehow prioritized strength over speed, and not because she was simply faster than him.
Last edited by Sirion_Of_Doom on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 08:44 PM
I'll re-explain my stance (but also refer to the picture above for reference):
Let's say person M has 5 midichlorians and person V has 10 midichlorians (that are combat applicable). Let's also say, per midichlorian, they get 5 pts of Force energy.
So, we have person M with 25 pts of Force energy and person V with 50 pts of Force energy.
Person V, therefore, has a vastly greater amount of energy to devote to speed than person M.
Thus, person V (hint: Valkorion) is faster than person M (hint: Maul).
Of course, Maul can devote all his pts of Force energy to speed (ex. Force Speed), but so could Valkorion - and to a greater extent.
Something like a Force push should follow under the same rules. More arcane techniques obviously require mastery.
I recognize that the text doesn't openly state what I'm saying, but my point is I'm asking for examples that prove my stance (which, as far as I can tell, is factually and logically consistent with how the Force should work) false, yet this specific case can easily fit within those rules and still be true.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 08:55 PM
Augmentation is a Force technique, and Force techniques need to be learned and practiced, so it's logical to conclude that augmentation is something one needs to hone as well. The formula most plausibly goes:
Augmentation skill = F(overall power, domain specific augmentation ability, how much energy you are putting into it)
Different Force users are can therefore obviously be better at different things even if they had the same overall power.
No...? If it were a matter of choice rather than deficiency then she'd just divert her energy to her barriers when her presumably focused-on precog told her she was going to get attacked. Indeed, people usually direct their energies to put up active barriers anyway, particularly people who may be bad at multitasking in combat like Vitiate who needed to release Revan to defend himself against T3.
See above.
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Lol, nobody said Djem so users can't be fast too but its less of a priority than a form like Ataru which specialises on fast, acrobatic attacks. Perhaps a better example would be the NJO's strong-medium-fast style forms though.
Malgus is a Sith Juggernaut, descriptions of which indicate focus on sheer strength and durability as their priority for combat. That's why he's running around in heavy armour instead of robes.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 09:04 PM
Sounds like I'm listening to a broken record. Force augmentation is a specific skill that requires specific training but also has nothing to do with training even though it does but not in this case.
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ILS and you constantly peddle the idea that Force augmentation is a skill that demands life-long mastery. I fully disagree. If that were the case, untrained yet powerful beings shouldn't be capable of performing strength and speed feats beyond that seen by trained individuals. For example - and I believe ILS even showed it to me - is Maul perceiving Anakin as a blur in TPM.
EDIT: It's possible that the technique is a learned-once-and-done thing, but the idea of life-long mastery just doesn't follow.
Well, for starters, Lsu is an odd example compared to how it normally works (similiar to how the Darth Bane novels also introduce the idea of an instinctual Greater Force barrier that no other source mentions). Lsu's lifelong devotion to technical mastery reached a degree where she explicitly never bothered to learn other Force techniques like a Greater Force barrier, likely hence why she was unable to initiate one with great success. Note that, in this thread, I never argued all Force techniques are directly linked to combat-applicable power, but basic telekinesis and Force augmentation should be since augmentation is just pouring your Force energy into specific body parts to increase its effectiveness.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 09:16 PM
Jan 22nd, 2018 07:23 PM
