Saber duel is a close one, but Vader pwns in a Force battle. I'll have to side with Vader. He's simply fought and killed more Jedi or, in other words, he simply has more experience. Then again, Tyrannus has the Makashi style, which is normally more than enough to defeat greater experience. Vader's style is a personal one, so he may be able to take Tyrannus off-gaurd for a while until Tyrannus learns the weaknesses of it, which could be long enough for Vader to finish him off. I'm going with Darth Vader. Tyrannus has Finesse while Vader has Experience.
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Registered: Sep 2005
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Vader also has strength, durability, and speed. The lightsaber fight would be tough, but Makashi doesn't have very powerful swings, which is usually fine with a lightsaber, but Vader is resiliant to lightsaber swings. Also, despite Dooku's age, he wouldn't lose much energy, I'm not sure on round one.
Anakin managed to beat Dooku by outmaneuvering him, I doubt Vader can do the same.
But has a strength advantage... Alas, Count Dooku has 70 years under his belt mastering Makashi, kept up with Yoda and was regarded to be Mace's equal. I see him taking 1 and 3 pretty damn convincingly.
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
Yeah, and if anyone has kinetic energy in their swings, it's Vader. Also, light swings won't work well against Vader, because his armor can take the damage (Luke's swing seemed more powerful than any of Dooku's, and it didn't harm Vader).
Well, let's consider all that you listed above. (Funny thing is I was playing as Darth Vader against Count Dooku in Versus mode on Multiplayer from the Star Wars: Episode 3 - Revenge Of The Sith video game for Xbox. I won, naturally .)
1. Lightsaber combat
COUNT DOOKU
In the case of Count Dooku, he fights more like a duelist than he does a Sith Lord. He's a bit more reserved for a Sith, compared to other more dominating Sith like Darth Maul and Darth Vader. His overall mentality during lightsaber combat is that of a calm duelist.
His lightsaber was constructed in the form of a curved hilt, which was beneficial for Dooku's preferred style of combat. It was light and often used for quick one-handed attacks.
He's also a master of one lightsaber form: Makashi (or Form II). It's definitely a more graceful lightsaber form. It's all about quick fluid movements that mostly utilize one-handed sweeps and strikes. The footwork of a Makashi specialist such as Count Dooku is often moving around like a dancer.
+ The good thing about Makashi is that since the movements are more graceful and swift, you can be on both the offensive and defensive. And more often than not, you can catch your enemy off guard and counter-attack, like in the case of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi fighting Count Dooku for the first time in Attack Of The Clones.
- The bad thing about Makashi is that it is definitely not a lightsaber form based on strength, like Shien / Djem So (or Form V). Not very good for getting into lightsaber locks with strength-oriented lightsaber specialists such as Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.
- It's also not very good for fighting multiple opponents. This weakness was exploited in Episode 3 when Anakin and Obi-Wan fought Count Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand for the second and last time. In the opening of the duel, you can clearly see how Count Dooku is somewhat struggling to defend himself against both Anakin and Obi-Wan. He even goes as far as to separate the two Jedi by Force-pushing Obi-Wan and focusing on Anakin Skywalker. But once those two got together again, Dooku was forced to kick Anakin away and Force-choke Obi-Wan and then throw him into a metal scaffolding and hold him underneath it, keeping him out of the fight.
Physique:
Despite how Count Dooku has aged, he was anything but a frail old man. He moved with the grace of a Jedi (former Jedi, that is) and he's had the experience to back this up. He was even able to go head-to-head and toe-to-toe with Jedi Grand Master Yoda.
All in all, Count Dooku is a very revered duelist. He has the grace and the patience of a Jedi. However, he lacks the true power of the Sith. He can be seen as probably one of the more restrictive Sith Lords in terms of lightsaber combat.
DARTH VADER
In the case of Darth Vader, I tend to find him to be a combination of Darth Maul's brutal animal-like savagery along with Count Dooku's patient duelist mentality. After his staggering defeat to his ex-master Obi-Wan Kenobi, Vader became a more level-headed duelist. He knew better than to rush into a battle like he did in Episode 3. He may have been a Sith Lord, but Vader was no mindless brute. After a few years, he managed to retain his Djem So combat skills. Alongside this, Vader managed to pool in his combat style by utilizing all of the lightsaber forms in his style. For example, in his first duel with his son Luke Skywalker, he easily disarmed Luke of his lightsaber in the first few seconds of the duel. This move was often utilized in Makashi, disarming an opponent of their weapon.
His lightsaber was specially made to suit his juggernaut-like style of combat. It was also a dual-plase lightsaber, a weapon in which the blade can be extended beyond a normal lightsaber length. This would be very beneficial against saber masters of Vader's caliber.
+ Vader may have been able to incorporate all the lightsaber forms in his style of combat. However, even as Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader was a specialist in Form V (Shien/Djem So) lightsaber combat. It was his bread and butter. The core values of Djem So was the use of brute force and domination, which more than suits Darth Vader. Shien, on the other hand, is used for blast deflection, which Darth Vader also excels at.
+ Form V specialists are also seen as one of the more versatile lightsaber combatants. Being able to switch from blast-deflection to lightsaber combat is a reflexive mentality that many Form V specialists such as Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano have.
+ To a bit of an extent, psychological warfare can be employed with Vader's Form V technique. As seen in his first duel with Luke Skywalker, Vader used a verbal technique used by Sith Lords and Jedi Knights alike called Dun Moch. It was a technique in demoralizing one's opponent by making them doubt themselves and getting inside their heads. Although, this technique does have a habit of being reversed on the person who instigated it, as seen in Vader's second duel with his son. Although Vader had succeeded in getting Luke to releasing his anger by saying he would turn Leia to the Dark Side, it was all for naught Luke started fighting more ferociously to the point where Vader almost couldn't keep up his defense.
- The only problem seen in Form V specialists like Darth Vader is the footwork. The overall style of Form V as heavily dependent upon the footwork, which is very slow. However in the case of Darth Vader in both battles with his son and his final duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi, it really doesn't show itself as much of a problem.
Physique:
After his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Vader has received many physical augmentations like enhanced cybernetic limbs and armor. With these, he became a whopping 6 foot 8 inches taller than he used to be. He can be seen as the juggernaut of the Sith Lords, being known to take more punishment than most Sith Lords. He's lost his cybernetic hands more than once, been buried many times, and even managed to tank Force Lightning from both Darth Sidious and Galen Marek (although he did die because of the former's Lightning, he was still able to take it despite the fatal damage.). He was even able to withstand a hit from his own Jedi blade at the hands of his son.
Also having cybernetic appendages has its advantages for Vader, too. He would be able to last longer in a lightsaber duel than he would have if he had his biological limbs. Also, if caught in a lightsaber lock, Vader would have the most strength to dominate his opponent.
He can also apply various techniques from other lightsaber forms and incorpoate them into his own style, allowing him to gain the upperhand in most fights.
In conclusion, Darth Vader is a force to be reckoned with. He is a juggernaut, but he's anything but just cybernetic muscles and Sith armor. He is as relentless as he is unpredictable. But then again...what would you expect from the Chosen One of the Force.
The Verdict: By a very large margin, I'd say the victor in terms of lightsaber combat is......DARTH VADER. Rigthfully, I'd say Vader would win in a duel against Count Dooku. Aside from the facts stated above about both duelists, here are a few other reasons why I believe Vader would win:
1. Experience. As Anakin Skywalker, Count Dooku's Makashi style defeated him only once and he learned from that defeat. And as a Jedi Knight, Anakin defeated Count Dooku once and for all. So even as Darth Vader, it COULD be more difficult for Vader to fight his Makashi technique, but it wouldn't really be nothing that the Chosen One couldn't defend himself against. Plus, Vader had more years as a Sith than Count Dooku (at 23, Anakin went Dark Side and died at the age of 46 as Vader.).
2. Overall imposing physical stature. Vader is a walking Sith Juggernaut. He even towers the good Count by a few inches. Also, given his Juggernaut-like strength, I imagine Count Dooku wouldn't be getting through Vader's defense very easily. Also, with his cybernetic attachments, Vader could keep up that defense, as well as put forward a strong offense.
3. Sith Mentality. One thing that would make these two somewhat even would be their tenures as Jedi and Sith. However, as opposed to Count Dooku, Darth Vader has embraced the Sith ways whole-heartedly, in both the Force and lightsaber combat. Count Dooku, on the other hand, is alot more reserved with his Force powers and lightsaber combat.
4. Combat experience. Where Count Dooku has killed only a few Jedi, Vader killed countless Jedi, including Obi-Wan Kenobi before and during the Second Great Jedi Purge.
Dooku's Makashi is far from being weak against multiple opponents. As we seen in the movie, and as we cpould read in "Rise and Fall of Darth Vader", Dooku had the upper hand in that duel against Anakin and Obi-wan, until Anakin reached his "zone/prime" state.
He was strong enough, to block Anakin and Obi-wan's blades in saberlocks.
He was fast enough, to fight almost equally with Yoda, who was the best swordmaster in the Saga (maybe only "zone" Anakin might be able to take advantage over him in a saber fight).
Anakin was able to defeat Count Dooku because he was stonger and faster. Vader is much stornger then Dooku, but he lacks speed and agily. Dooku on the other hand is one of the most agily swordmasters of his era.
Vader might be able to take all out. His saber skills might be enough to hold Dooku's attacks (with saber and lightning) for a while, and let him find a chance to takie advantage over Count by his force TK.
Vader will win TK fight, but will loose saber fight.
While it's true that Vader was not fast and agile like his former self, he doesn't need to be. He's capable of standing his ground against even more than one Jedi, shown in his battle against Olee Starstone and multiple Jedi on Kashyyk from "Dark Lord: Rise Of Darth Vader".
Plus, Vader isn't a one-trick Sith Lord. While he excels at telekinesis, he's twice the lightsaber duelist that Dooku was.
Dooku's Makashi style of lightsaber combat is impressive, but he's far too reserved, compared to Vader. Vader was also very calculating in his duels, being able to counter every move used against him. If anything, this duel might end the same way it did aboard the Invisible Hand back when Vader was a Jedi.
Vader. World class defense., fast hands. Not mobile but he had some of the fastest hands in the Galaxy. Saber fight Vader wins. 2. Vader. Vader is once again a complete monster in the force, fighting off 5 Jedi at once including a Master with just the force. 3. Vader, Vader had much more to his disposal than the Count. Vader could easily catch Count off guard with his force, such as throwing things at him while still battling.
May 21st, 2006 02:44 AM
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