Gender: Unspecified Location: One for the other hand
Our Judeo-Christian Nation
Shit like this really pisses me off and not the fact that I'm an Atheist but more for the fact that this is elitism in the highest order. Yes was this country founded on some of the Christian principles yes but it was also founded on many other religious beliefs and non-beliefs as well. To say we are a Christian nation is saying a big FU to everyone that is not Christian and the last time I check this is supposed to be a country of all and not a county of one religion. It is like saying that we are a Christian nation but we will allow you to practice you heathen religion here but your religion is not part of this nation because it is a CHRISTIAN nation. Grow up, it would be the same as saying that England was built from the ruling class so England is the nation of Kings so let us all go back to a ruling monarchy. Give me a break.
just because it was founded by christians doesnt mean it is solely represents the christian ideal, i dont know but i heard not everyone was christians and some where even athiest. saying that we are a christian nation is just as insulting as being called an infidel or gentile by other religious ppl which i call fanatics. just for calling other ppl those names.
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
Thomas Paine:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
James Madison:
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Thomas Jefferson:
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."
Benjamin Franklin:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
You know that America wasn't founded on Christianity, and now there is a lot of Christianity in America now. Well, when did the point of there being little Christianity end, and the point where there being lots of christianity begin?
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
Where did you go to school?
At the time when the US was formed, the idea of an atheist was unheard of. All of the founders were Christian in one way or another, and to one degree or another. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. However, these people saw first hand how wrong a nation can be when religion and government are mixed like what was happening in England at the time. They intentionally set out to make this country (US) to not be a Christian nation, but one based on the principles of Christianity. This distinction makes all the difference in the world.
The intent was not to have a nation based on the principles of Christianity, but based on the laws and principles of the Enlightenment. A lot of these principles were rooted in or justified with religious rhetoric, just as many of the concepts and laws of the US were deliberately separated from any direct religious overtones.
Like most things, its a conglomeration of HISTORICAL influence, non-influence, and justification. Obama justifies community values (brotherhood, etc) using Christianity, but that doesn't make them Christian concepts, or even if you portray them that way, exclusively Christian. Such is the lineage of modern democracy (thank you Scotland).
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
Where did you go to school?
Enlightenment? Natural Law? These are all terms used to describe Christian principles. When we say enlightenment or natural law today it has a completely different meaning then it did 200 years ago. I think you are getting the past confused with the present. We have choices today that the people of the past did not even conceive of.
Now I bet you are going to go off on some esoteric rant about how basic concepts cannot be contributed to a particular religion. Again that is a modern idea that does not apply to what was in the mind of the founders.
However, we do not live 200 years ago, we live now. The idea that we have to close our eyes to modern concepts just because our founders did not share those ideas is short sided and ignorant.
You tell me that we should not close our eyes to modern concepts, but that my argument is wrong because I'm using a modern meaning instead of the old one?
Sounds fishy to me...
Newton used gravity to justify his Christian faith and vice versa. What I'm saying that using a religion as part of the RATIONALE for an argument does not infact make that argument a religious one. Equal rights for white landowning males of a certain age was partially justified using Christianity...as were things like natural laws. However, that does not mean that the "US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles." Instead, it was founded on concepts justified by Judeo-Christian principles. These same concepts can be justified (as you pointed out) a number of given ways today. What I have pointed out is an important distinction.
Regardless, i think you are also over-simplyfying things. The United States is clearly NOT founded on the Christian RELIGION...this is different from PRINCIPLES, which is a distinction often overlooked in this argument. Also, many Christians today would not consider Deism to be a form of Christianity...thats debatable imo...and there was a broad range of religious beliefs among those "founding fathers." Today, some would be considered more atheist or simply spiritual than Christian...since a lot of these lines are blurry anyway.
I made one post in this thread prior to that and it's purpose was to show at least four anti-christian founding fathers. Of them Thomas Paine was the most radical, he said all sorts of things about how christianity was a complete abomination and the sort.
I mean come on Shaky, this wasn't the middle ages... since the 1600s there were tons of intellectuals who rejected christianity, and in the enlightenment they were becoming super popular. I mean the French Revolutionary government was completely anti-christian and deism was really quite popular. Your arguments might ring true if we were talking say the 1400s, but by the 1700s rejection of christianity was by no means as unthinkable as you make it seem.
Six actually. There are like fifty "founders" (and no way I was going to look up all their views) but it seems like most of the important ones (presidents, important party leaders ect.) had anti-christian views. As far as I know, the breakdown is something like this:
John Adams: Deist.
Alexander Hamilton: Was athiest at the time of founding of nation, later was born again.
Thomas Paine: Deist, hated Christianity.
James Madison: I suspect Deist or Athiest, definitely not christian.
Thomas Jefferson: Believed in god but not affiliated with christianity or any other organized religion.
Benjamin Franklin: Deist.
This was the breakdown I usually find of the "important founders":
John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay.
Out of those six we had an incredible... two christians (later became three when Hamilton converted). So it seems like the country was founded mostly on Deists and CERTAINLY was nothing like the picture you painted of a world where everyone was christian and athiesm was unthinkable.
KMC Community Forums
Our Judeo-Christian Nation
Jun 11th, 2009 12:17 AM
