There are som emajor differences though. Anakin didn't start or win the race with a purpose to become a Jedi. He had no prupose at all except helping... Something he achieved by winning the race.
This is exactly the messed up part of the PT: he goes about does stuff etcera. It's all little things. Some have consequences, some don't.
He goes half cocked to find his mother, he doesn't stop or cause her death by coming, and his disobedience has no consequence. No one responds to him. Yes, he gets closer to the dark side, but as you stated before: that's what he is doing all the time. There's no difference, more of the same.
He goes of to Geonosis: no consequence. he doesn't get punished etc. There's the little thing that they get captured and have to get out. Now, the only thing that you could argue about this is: because Anakin went out to save Kenobi, Yoda was forced to use the Clone Army to free them... but even by saying that, that sounds so ridiculous, that that particular cause-consequence thing is quite outrageous...
Anyway, Anakin hardly gets reprimanded for his disobedience (which is the real character act that he performs!!) so it doesn't matter really.
And he gets married, but that too has no consequence for him either. Since no one finds out. Of course, you will say that she gets pregnant and he worries about her. But the conflict part about the marriage is that it's not allowed. And that part is left completely unused.
Again, no consequences for his action. No reprimand from the Jedi for slaughtering a defeated man... Nothing. All you have is that he acts to get closer to the dark side and he does that all the time: nothing stands in his way. No conflict, no tension... not really interesting.
Nope. Because he acts, and he gets what he wants by the act. There's no conflict... it just all happens.
Compare again: Luke wants to save his friends in ESB. He goes half-cocked to Cloud City. And here he fails miserably: he is totally unable to help his friends, he loses his hand and nearly his life and finds out a terrible truth that forever will change his future.
The only comparison with Anakin's half-cockedness is that during the Dooku fight when he doesn't listen to OB1 and gets his hand cut off. But that is only a momentary impuls (of disobedience again) which gets him to lose his hand, but his lost hand changes nothing about his story. His lost hand has no consequences for his dramatic storyline.
In ROTJ we SEE that Vader has robotic hands (we don't even need to know why because we find out at the same time as Luke) and that image and the thought of his own severed hand make Luke see where he is going if he doesn't stop.... So Luke's severing of his hand in the end stops him from slaughtering Vader. Anakin's loss of his hand has no meaning other than boring exposition for these scenes in ROTJ.
I'm on an iPhone here so I will make this kind of short. This is Anakins story of falling to the dark side and all the things he did in all 3 films ultimately contributed to it. Same with Luke it was his journey to become a Jedi and the choices or situations he was forced into ultimately contributed to it.
You are looking for consequences in everything. Anakin leaves and perhaps as a result after that this is why his mother was sold. And as a result why she died.
There is a consequence.
The OT was always more simple and for the most part exciting. This is why Lucas did it first (that and effects). Cause had he started with tpm people wouldn't of been as interested cause it's not as exciting as anh.
That doesn't change the fact that he's still a whiner in ESB, which was what we were talking about from way back in our conversation on this. My reply to your above statement would be the same as what I've stated already, so I'll not waste your time by re-quoting myself. I'm sure you appreciate that, too.
I don't even know where to start.
We do see this: Vader throughout the OT. The last we see of him his is overly dramatic "NOOOOOOO!" scene and then, bam, Cyborg Vader all throughout the OT.
Also, it's grumpy Obi Wan and argumentative teenager Anakin in AOTC. We know exactly why he's like that: he's a teenager. He's arrogant, brash, and over-confident. Typical of a teenage male.
And, yeah, he's easily understandable: he's overconfident because he's the chosen one and is very gifted even among Jedi. It's easy to see why he's that way and we had an entire movie before AOTC that explained that for us.
Anakin's motivations are very explicit and the PT's character motivations are very easy to see and understand.
Why does a character's sole purpose have to be what they want? Why can't it be just surviving the sea of wants from others? Why can't it be just surviving? Why can't it be accidentally falling in love? Why can't it be discovering something that you did not originally want? And so forth.
Additionally, we know exactly what Anakin wants: he wants to be an awesome Jedi and to be with his sweetheart: Padme.
We can summerize that even more simply: he wants to be good at his job and love his spouse. That's a very basic human want and should appeal to many. I have found that AOTC, for Star Wars new comers, was the most enjoyable of all 6 films because they could relate to it the most.
Where's the problems with that? That all points to a teenage Jedi who is gifted giving an "older brother/babysitter" character a hard time. It's fairly typical in TV and real life, right?
It does have consequences: very deep personal ones. It is essential to his character development and the turning point between a difficult padawan to a genuine dark-side inner turmoil.
Also, why would Padme be upset at the slaughter of Sand People?
Here's why she wouldn't be:
1. She is Nobility and a former Queen: savage raiders, murderers, and kidnappers dying would not give her pause.
2. She had no emotional attachment to any of the sandpeeps.
3. The Sand people captured and tortured/beat Anakin's mother.
4. Anakin was extremely torn up and angry over the incident and that's her lover.
5. She actually DOES react by gasping when Anakin says he "slaughtered them all."
Also, Anakin would not tell the Jedi, nor would Padme: keep in mind that they were having an "illegal" relationship. Why would Padme tell on her lover?
1. He doesn't become the greatest Jedi ever.
2. There is a consequence which is his fall to the dark side.
3. They kept their marriage utterly secret. Why is that a problem for you? If they don't keep it secret, shit hits the fan, man.
I don't understand why that is a problem. Why is wanting to prevent or at least revive his love's life, a bad thing? People do very stupid thing when they are in love...including throw their career away.
Point is: the PT has no consequences...
I get it. I see what you were doing. I thought the former were singular criticisms of Anakin's character, not a comparison to Luke. My bad. I should have read further down, dude. My fault.
If I knew you were doing a fair comparison, I would have responded differently. I'll leave that other stuff there, though, as I think I brought up some good points.
To your point #1: Doing the Pod Race almost gets him killed. Jumping in a Naboo spacecraft nearly gets him killed. And so forth. Anakin becomes one of the heroes of the Trade Federation Battle over Naboo, hero of the Pod Races, and "trophy" of the Jedi Order as the "Chosen One." And that's in TPM, alone.
Here's a proper comparison to ESB:
He become stronger in the force before the events of AOTC because he got his Jedi training, then. He saves the person he is in love with from certain death and in doing so, gets to start up a relationship. Anakin makes a gamble in a relationship with a legit criticism of the Jedi Code and gets with Padme. He goes on an adventure to save his mother and sees her right before she does. He then massacres an entire tribe. He jumps into a fight with a Sith Lord, rashly, and loses his hand...and part of his forearm.
Because Anakin decided to go against the Order, his marriage to Padme creates discontent and his further ties with Padme are the direct reason he falls to the dark side. His rash decision to fight Dooku without Obi Wan's help results in him having to have a Cybernetic arm the rest of his Jedi days: openly wearing his "scarlet letter" without a choice. Because he makes all of those poor decisions and falls, he kills his wife through stress and a broken heart during her birth to his children, he ends up killing many friends and alienating his closest friend and brother: Obi Wan.
No, it's definitely there in spades in the PT. I think your comparison is unfair to the PT.
Last edited by dadudemon on Feb 9th, 2011 at 01:27 PM
There you are... this is the crucial point you're not willing to accept. This is the point why the PT is flawed.
In a dramatic story a character has to WANT something. It is the motor that drives the movie, that proples the story forward.
Survival is a desire. But it's only survival if one has trouble surviving. Sitting on an island alone withs lots of food and entertainment can be considered surviving but it's rather boring. In Castaway you can see what surviving is about : you have obstacles in surviving.
Falling in love and being answered in that immediately is not dramatic. Falling in love and having the loved one hate you is more interesting. Or dying. Or being married ... in other words: obstacles in reaching the goal of answered love.
Even discovering what what you didn't want can be the outcome of a quest seraching for waht you find. The quest only becomes interesting if there are obstacles.
These aren't obstacles. The visions of his mother do not stand in his way of becoming the greatest Jedi ever. HE's already that in ROTS, so his visions never stopped him or slowed him down. It would have if the Tusken slaughter had endangered his position with the Jedi or Padme.
His falling in love with Padme has no consequences for his career: no one finds out, Padme doesn't stop him (she says something but she doesn't act or prevent the marriage), no one kicks him out of the Jedi Order... That's what should have happened mind you, it would have made the story much more dramatic.
The disagreements don't stop him: The Jedi even make him the youngest Master ever!!! These are facts from the movie no obstacles. They should be though... this is why the PT is so flawed.
And Palpatine is no obstacle either. He wants him to be the greatest Jedi for his own purpose.
In short: we see Luke work very hard with lots of blood, sweat and tears to become a Jedi. Anakin does it without any problems.
By the same comparison anakin has obsticals too. Loss of mother, Jedi council, geonosis battle, love for padme capture of obiwan and palpitine, battle over coruscant, dooku and obiwan. His journey is full of obsticals too just like Luke. but you have to remember it's easier to be evil than it is to be good
Yeah, I just referred to those 'obstacles' two posts before. They are not obstacles... they appear to be, but they have no effect whatsoever on his quest to become the greatest Jedi ever. This is where the PT is majorly different from the OT.
Here's a PT-approach to the example you gave, above:
Anakin goes from a very trusting, fun-loving, carefree, mechanical genius kid, into a depressed ***hole cyborg with a chip on his shoulder while Luke remains a positive naivete until the bitter end (which almost costs him his life, his friend's lives, and the rebels the war...a close call that only a standard "good-guys win" plot can resolve.)
That definitely proves the difference in character development with the PT having much more of it. Don't forget about Jar-Jar Binks! lol.....hahahahahahahahahaha
So I don't want you to think that me using things like 'overcoming others' wants" and "surviving" as my personal opinion. As fact, neither you nor I can define what a dramatic film is, but we can certainly say what types we like: "Dramatic Film" was defined by the movie industry before both of us were born.
It depends on the context, of course, because drama specifically deals with emotional elements. Love is one of the strongest emotions so, obviously, it can be grouped into "drama."
It just depends on the film, of cousre. "The Notebook" would be an example of drama as it pertains to love. "There's Something About Mary" would be an example of no-dramatic love.
That's exactly what happens: Anakin ends up hating the shit out of Padme and tries to kill her because he thinks she betrayed him to Obi Wan.
That also happened.
That's only one angle on Love as it pertains to drama, though. Drama, as it pertains to love, can also be the emotional elements of a love relationship AFTER the relationship starts. You'll find that that is the primary focus of dramatic films as it pertains to love: the relationship AFTER it starts, not the path leading up to it. The path up to falling in love CAN be dramatic, but it's generally portrayed as the "golden" or "romantic" portion in films. AOTC is no exception.
That's not entirely true, either. Sometimes, the quest alone, is a time for introspection and self-discovery, making the "real" adventure character development, thus making the outcome of the quest, itself, irrelevant.
They aren't obstacles?
I think they are obstacles and you do not. There's really no need for us to continue this particular path of discussion as we both have clearly outlined our points about those being or not being obstacles. I'll respond to your below points, but I think it's a waste of both our times if I think they are obstacles, and you do not.
They do and they did. He had to 'finish' that chapter in his life before continuing as he was haunted and plagued by them on such a level as to interfere with even day-to-day life.
He is not. Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan, etc. They are all great Jedi and no one can say that the other is a greater one except probably Mace or Yoda: they are definitely considered "great" Jedi probably even greater than Obi Wan and Anakin.
This is incorrect. It became so bad that he did not want to do anything else but stop that and he finally got permission to take care of business. That's a direct cause and effect.
Considering it was a "concealed" secret that should have been brought before the council and addressed with either expulsion or lots of counseling, it's a pretty dang important obstacle and it was a major contributor to his fall.
Except that it directly does and directly leads to his fall.
Except everyone that survives the great Jedi Purge...the most important Jedi people in Anakin's life, I might add.
'inaction' can also be an obstacle in fiction and in this case, it was.
That's because he kept things secret and up to the point where he literally slaughters lots of the Jedi Order, there was no way for him to get kicked out unless he revealed his thoughts around Yoda or something.
I disagree. It's much more dramatic for someone to fall so low that he ends up killing small children for a blind cause, white-washed by the manipulative words of the most evil person in the whole story: palpatine.
What you propose is Anakin being forced to leave the Jedi Order, having to get counseling or something. That's not as "dramatic" as a surprise slaughter at the Jedi Temple of one of the Order's most powerful subjects.
At the behest and extreme political pressure from the Emperor, of course. Don't forget that: it's very important to as to the "why" of his appointment. And, yeah, the disagrements DO stop him: he stops being a Jedi when he becomes Lord Vader, directly stopping his plans of becoming the greatest Jedi.
You just named off lots of obstacles and then called them not obstacles, which is why we will always disagree.
This confused me.
Those facts should be obstacles and that's why the PT is flawed when in fact those facts are obstacles, so the PT isn't flawed.
If you don't see Anakin's anger and hate being an obstacle for Anakin's character, then I think you've missed out on the most important element of the Star Wars characters. The difference between Luke and Anakin is that Luke does not give into his hate at the end of the day. Luke has far less of a reason to give into it, of course, because he's not madly in love with anyone and is more "detached" to the world than Anakin was. It should be no surprise that he fell and his reasons for falling were much better reason's than Luke's for falling. This is another reason why Anakin's character is actually superior in development than Luke's and another reason why the PT is better than the OT.
On this point, we agree. However, "from a certain point of view" he is the ultimate obstacle and it is not resolved until RoTJ.
I guess being torn away from his mother, who is a single parent, and losing the only father-like figure he had known, is easy as pie, right? It was a cake-walk for Anakin, right? Wrong. As we know, he has problems on his path to becoming a Jedi in AotC and no one knows except for "us" the movie watcher. Sure, he becomes a Jedi, but it's not that simple.
hahahahaa. Yeah, good ol' JarJar. He experiences character development of his own, but it's hard to take his seriously.
No it doesn't: it takes place on screen as I've listed out, already.
Additionally, almost all of Luke's takes place entirely off screen betwen ESB and RotJ. So, by your own logic, you should like the PT more than the OT on that particular point.
Last edited by dadudemon on Feb 9th, 2011 at 04:41 PM
We see a happy go lucky kid in TPM... AOTC opens and we see a grumpy, arrogant brat... where do we see him changing? What causes it and what do we see that we can understand why he changes?
And reading your internet links is just very general. It has nothing to do ith designing a story. You should read people like Robert McKee or Christopher Vogler if you want to learn how every story evolves around one or several characters, protagonists... And the very word "pro" already says he is out FOR something. There is a MAIN CHARACTER with a DESIRE (which is motivated, so there is MOTIVE as well) and a CONFLICT to fulfill that desire (and the conflict is already mentioned in your internet links). In the process of reaching the OBJECT OF DESIRE there is character development.
Now, there is plenty of conflict in the PT, but a lot of it doesn't really have to do with Anakin's path. That is my point. You mention conflict situations but they do not really form obstacles.
Anakin likes Padme, he tells her he loves her (does two very stupid things that would normally put a woman off), she hesitates and then says yes.... WHAT KIND OF A LOVE STORY IS THAT????? NOT!!!
Tell me then in simple terms: What is it that Anakin is after? What is his goal? What does he want?
How are these NOT obsticals? Loss of mother, Jedi council, geonosis battle, love for padme capture of obiwan and palpitine, battle over coruscant, dooku and obiwan.
Loss of mother, impeeded him from becoming a Jedi and started him down the dark path.
The Jedi council is always there holding him back.
The geonosis battle is the same as hoth battle for Luke.
His love for padme is an obstical because he has to deal with conflicting emotions.
Capture of obiwan made him go to geonosis and get captured himself and loose an arm.
Capture of palps had him go to the ship and kill dooku
And he always felt obiwan was holding him back.
But he became a Jedi... Nothing stopped him from being trained. His mother didn't stop him. Looking for his mother was just a short trip to Tatooine. he wasn't doing anything anyway. His mother died, he slaughtered Tusken but no one either found out or held it against him. If anything, it brought him closer to Padme.
By the start of ROTS he is the youngest Jedi Master ever and is up for a spot in the Council.... I mean.... how does this form an obstacle????
Is it? The Hoth Battle was the result of the Destruction of the Death Star. The Rebellion was at stake here in which Luke was now a serious player.
I still don't really know what the Geonosis battle was about. Basically it's about saving OB1 I think... A rather huge rescue operation. OB1 accidentally stumbles on a droid factory, accidentally on Dooku and OB1 and Anakin try to stop him. Anakin is rash and loses his hand... I don't see the connection with Hoth at all. The entire battle of even the fight against Dooku have no consequences for Anakin, except the loss of his hand. He's still a respected padawan, he doesn't get reprimanded for his disobience etc etc...
Of course it leads him further into the Dark Side blahdeeblaah... But even on that path there are no obstacles. He does this falling all the time... he does this arrogant disobedience all the time. And yet, nothing or nodoby stands in his way.
Yes... but how do the conflicting emotions stand in his way to develop himself? They don't. It's just " I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm distraught, he's holding me back..." etc etc... He has conlficting emotions from the moment we see him in AOTC. That never goes away. We don't know or understand why, but stil;l it doesn't stop him from a) becoming the greatest Jedi ever b) marrying Padme c) being the youngest Jedi Master c) be close to the Chancellor d) be the youngest master on the Council.
How is this an obstacle??? It's an obstacle in being happy, maybe... But is that what Anakin is after? Love? Is that his main quest? If so, how does complaining about your caring Master, whining to the girl you like, slaughtering Tuskens and children and fellow Jedi fit in that picture?
A) It's not like he was doing anything exciting at the moment, so there was no real dilemma in going. Except maybe disregarding an order but we already know he always did that anyway and it never had any consequences.
B) The rest of the battle I handled above. Losing an arm does not interfere with his quest. It's like falling off the stairs by running down too hard.
He felt and complained and whined. He never confronts OB1 with this and disobeys him all the time anyway. This just makes him an ungrateful, whiny and arrogant brat... very unsympathetic as well.
And again... we never SEE OB1 holding him back, never really reprimanding him.. what we SEE is Anakin complaining and whining.
And again, even IF OB1 was holding him back, that never stopped him in any way to a) become the greatest Jedi ever b) marrying Padme c) being the youngest Jedi Master c) be close to the Chancellor d) be the youngest master on the Council.
THAT is why they are not obstacles. They are mere events that take place. All these events do is continue the same process of the entire saga: Anakin is falling to the Dark Side.... and falling and falling... and nothing is stopping this process, it's going smoothly and smoothly.
And when tehre no exciting events to partake in to help him fall, there's always his own complaining and whining in the moments he is not doing anything rash....
Last edited by queeq on Feb 10th, 2011 at 07:59 AM
It's general for a reason because you are describing how a story is supposed to work and how Drama is supposed to work. When you delve into that conversation, is not longer specific to Star Wars but becomes a general conversation about fiction in books and film.
No, "pro" indicates which character the READER is "for", not the character's motivations.
What you stated as actually indicated as an incorrect reading of the word roots:
1670s, "principal character in a story, drama, etc.," from Gk. protagonistes "actor who plays the chief or first part," from protos "first" (see proto-) + agonistes "actor, competitor," from agon "contest" (see act). Meaning "leading person in any cause or contest" is from 1889. Mistaken sense of "advocate, supporter" (1935) is from misreading of Gk. protos as L. pro- "for.""
Well, we shouldn't expect such a simplistic story in this day and age. Often, the most popular are those that have semi-complex plots and multiple character to 'root for.'
No, they do. Don't you find it absurd that you're trying to claim that the PT does not have "conflict situations"? I don't think you honestly believe that.
It's possible that you're making another point that I was missing. Maybe you mean to say that those obstacles are not as "awesome" of obstacles as the ones from the OT? That makes more sense. Is that what you're trying to say?
Boy meets girl. Boy falls in love with girl because she's attractive to him. Her personality, looks, demeanor, money, power, and so forth. Depends on what you look for. Anakin fell in love with Padme when he was 8 and obviously thought about her a lot, as we got to hear in AotC. Initially, Anakin just wants to spend time with her and see how it goes and she refuses his affections. That makes him want her even more.
It's not as simple as, "you purdy. me take you as mate. Ugh ugh!" but I do admit that it isn't an elaborate and complex love story like, say, Dexter's relationship with Rita on the show "Dexter."
I thought you named that already?
Man, it would be so much faster if we could stand in front of podiums and talk about this in front of a million star wars fans.
Ok then, so how does Luke loosing Ben hold him back he still becomes a Jedi.
For me with anakin, almost everything that affected him affected him emotionally and furthered his journey down the dark side.