Sadly, that may not be true. Yoda, Mace, I think Ki-Adi, and maybe another was present to hear Palpatine's and Amedda's extremely obvious ploy on Jar Jar. Not an eyebrow was raised that day.
__________________ I did not hit her, it's not true. It's bullshit. I did not hit her. I did naawwt.
Palpatine provided clever rationalizations for both orders. Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin had tapped into the dark side at that point in time. As we know from Return of the Jedi, it's painfully easy to manipulate obscenely angry Force users. There is precedent.
Would it have made more sense to you if Palpatine threw on some lipstick, exchanged his robe for a nurse's costume, and started advocating chaos?
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: teehehe u see wut i did thur
Indeed, what could have prompted Palpatine to assume that an unconscious Jedi Master might be burdensome when confronted with security droids while stranded on on a heavily damaged enemy ship in the middle of a war zone.
He lacks your tremendous tactical intuition.
And who's to say that Anakin was informed of Dooku's claim about Darth Sidious? What basis has he for these klaxons to blare?
True, it's not as though they'd grown suspicious enough to enact a top secret plan to exploit Anakin's proximity to Palpatine by using him as a spy or to monitor all of his dealings.
That probably would have been a pivotal plot point in the film in addition to being an overall positive addition to the narrative, illustrating that the Jedi were hardly oblivious to Palpatine's machinations, that they detected something more than a little off about the guy, and were prepared to take action short of flying off the handle and arresting him on hearsay and suspicion.
True, and they'd have ample reason to be suspicious. According to the film, Palpatine was delaying the vote for the Military Creation Act as long as possible in an effort to prolong negotiations rather than see a military build up, which is a painfully obvious attempt to orchestrate a military build up.
It's similar to how real world politicians with militant agendas tend to propose cuts to the defense budget. Makes perfect sense, no?
Why is this information necessary? We're told he was a Jedi Master who died almost ten years before and that he issued the order for the Republic. That's like complaining about how we didn't learn how the Rebellion acquired the Death Star plans, therefore A New Hope sucks.
Surprise?
At 12:46-12:50, Yoda and Mace exchange looks of surprise. What did you expect? Doesn't one of the core Jedi precepts involve divorcing one's self from emotion?
Meanwhile, Luke and Leia, who didn't benefit from decades of Jedi driven stoicism, didn't so much as bat an eye when returning to the carcasses of dead guardians or watching a planet blow up. They reacted more to Kenobi's death, yet we don't write ANH off the table for such glaring inconsistencies.
Why does he need to be?
They tried to bring Fett in for questioning with respect to the origins of the army and the Kaminoan administrators were clearly in the dark about it, since they assumed Sifo-Dyas had the authorization of the Council and Senate, which Mace denies having given. With Fett and Sifo-Dyas both dead, what else was there to follow?
TPM ends with Mace and Yoda discussing the existence of the second Sith. Again, what trail was there to follow and how are you certain that leads weren't investigated?
My own glib remarks aside, the film indicates Palpatine spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to delay the passage of the Military Creation Act and continuing to pursue negotiations with the separatists. Why would they suspect his words to Jar Jar? Did I miss the part where he waved his hand and said "You will give me emergency powers" or is this a conclusion drawn as a member of the audience?
Only if Kenobi's promise to train him without their approval and the existence of the second Sith Lord don't count as reasons. Forgive me for failing to see the wisdom in loosing an impressionable adolescent with the highest midi-chlorian count on record into the galaxy without supervision or training.
On lawless Tatooine where Republic laws weren't recognized? What would you have had them do?
Padme, the career politician who blew Anakin off, dismissing him as an eternal "little boy" when they reunited? He had no reason to conclude she'd stoke the proverbial fires.
The attempt occurred on Coruscant, not Naboo. She was an ambassador who was returned to her sovereign system under the protection of the Jedi, which isn't an illogical move.
What reinforcements would they have drawn on? Palpatine was the commander-in-chief and Windu had no proof of Palpatine's treachery beyond Skywalker's word. He had no reason to conclude manpower was an issue, since he made the attempt with three other Jedi Council Masters.
That might have to do with the fact that Anakin was involved in an even more critical operation with monitoring the Chancellor.
Because Obi-Wan, who knows Anakin better than any of them and whose loyalty is not known to be compromised, vouched for him. Dangerous? Certainly. Risky? Absolutely. But arbitrary? Hardly.
It's a serendipitous moment when I log in at TFN to find that Raynor was posting just today on this issue. I'm going to see if I can lure him here to combat ye RLM stalwarts.
That and I'm wayyyy behind on my Forceborn chapter.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Land of Little Cubes and Tea
Er, I think that might get a little awkward. I mean he obviously put alot of effort into it. I'd be hesitant to criticise it to his face (figuratively speaking).
Stop thinking from outside the film, and consider what the character himself is hearing. In an explicitly sinister and creepy voice, he's ordering Anakin to execute someone. Insisting. That's suspicious.
Anakin just single handily defeated Count Dooku and you think some security droids that are literally too stupid to pull the trigger are a threat?
That should not matter, regardless. Once again, Palpatine gives Anakin a very rushed and urgent order to leave his unconscious friend to die without any attempt to help him or even wake him up. That's suspicious.
What are you talking about? I didn't mention Dooku.
Palpatine is informing Anakin about Sith legends and making unsubtle remarks about death prevention, power and the inability to get ahold of those things as a Jedi. That's suspicious.
And the plan they decided on was to send an emotionally troubled young man who looks up to, and admires Palpatine to spy on him?
That's moronic.
Glad you agree that their conversation was dripping with manipulative tones. The real world's politicians are irrelevant in this movie's story.
...
Holy shit.
The Clone Army that was created at around the same time as the Battle of Naboo, before the Separatist crisis, is important. It was ordered long before conflict was on the table. It was done on behalf of a Jedi Master who was then shortly afterward killed. You don't introduce a major mystery like that in to your film and then not explain it. This is shitty writing. It's like if Citizen Kane never brought up what 'Rosebud' was again. Or if The Usual Suspects never bothered to tell us what was up with this Keyser Soze mystery character.
You know what was great about ANH? They reacted. They did something about what was happening.
You know what the entire Jedi Order did about the fact that one of their own Jedi Master ordered the creation of an army of clones formed from the DNA of a bounty hunter who is likely involved in the attempted assassination of a major political figure who opposes armies? A Jedi Master who was then killed? Ten years before the Military Creation Act?
Absolutely nothing. This is shitty writing.
To resolve a major mystery the movie introduced. Why else?
Nothing. Which is the problem. The movies gives us nothing else.
__________________ I did not hit her, it's not true. It's bullshit. I did not hit her. I did naawwt.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Feb 18th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
I'm not. No one is. The movies never show us anything. Which is the problem.
This one is fairly obvious, but it requires the viewer to have an understanding of manipulative tone. The actors portraying Palpatine and Amedda dipped their dialogue in to a vat of pure deception. This one can actually be attributed to the actors more than Lucas or the other writers. If, say, two characters speak sarcastically when the dialogue would be better suited for something more subtle, you don't ignore their tone just to rationalize on behalf of the film. The actors made a flub and the editors didn't notice. It's a flaw. Unfortunately it's just one of so many in these prequels.
So to recap, it was their blatantly obvious tone of voice more than the words. And it was the fact the Jedi Masters of all people let it sail over their head. This is one is character deficiency.
Don't apologize, because you're right. That's actually a great reason. But wouldn't it have been a lot more credible if someone in the film said that?
Come back and pay Watto to free Shmi, thereby setting the Jedi's highest midichlorian student's mind to rest? Maybe at least try?
And he had no reason to conclude that his 19 year old, obsessed Padawan wouldn't?
A major galactic politician has almost been killed twice now. They got a bomb on her ship coming in, and poisonous bugs in her bed. You don't think that after she suddenly disappears the assassin might, just might... think of checking her home world? Either the Jedi Council don't care about Padme enough to try harder, or they're that stupid. Send her to some other, less obvious world. There's thousands of 'em.
How about, like all the Jedi on Coruscant? How about getting Yoda back from Kashyyyk for a bit to deal with a Dark Lord? How about just confronting Palpatine in open space, in public? In the middle of the Senate? Let everyone in the galaxy hear your accusation, and let them all watch Palaptine's reaction. If he unleashes his powers, he's blown. If he runs, he's blown. If he denies, submit him to a midichlorian test. Just make it public, don't deal in secrets in the dead of night in isolated chambers.
Because that more critical assignment couldn't backfire in any way... *sigh* But I've already talked about that above.
Hey, how about they send Mace with him? Or one of those other guys on the Council who never get any lines? How about just sending more than one Jedi?
Yeah. I know.
Stupid, stupid character.
__________________ I did not hit her, it's not true. It's bullshit. I did not hit her. I did naawwt.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Feb 18th, 2012 at 12:23 PM
The analysis is an explanation as to why it's not enjoyable, and unfortunately there's not some core, lone reason--it's a plethora of factors. But the immediate sense of disappointment and dislike doesn't require explanation. It's like taking a bite of something you find disgusting: you can't explain it right away, but you know it's still disgusting.
__________________ I did not hit her, it's not true. It's bullshit. I did not hit her. I did naawwt.
Actually you'd be surprised how many people watched TPM and AOTC (non SW fans) and had no idea Palpatine was the main villain.
Maybe suspicions rose about his political oppurtunism, but thats something Obi-Wan had already commented on at the beginning of AOTC to Anakin. They simply put it down to politicians being crafty like that. Not exactly reason to suspect him being a Sith Lord or anything close to that conclusion....
... That is until of course Dooku TOLD Obi-Wan that the Dark Lord of the Sith himself was IN CHARGE of the Republic!!! That bit kind of gets to me, that Dooku even TOLD THEM.. But they basically just ignored him!
^ I know it was. Im just pointing out that a lot of non SW fans did not get that until ROTS. Lol I even knew a SW fan who didn't get it at the time of TPM believe it or not.
My question is, why is Anakin still wearing that same ****ing slave outfit that he's had since Tatooine, at that point in the movie. You'd think that by they time they got to Couracant to show him to the Jedi Council, they would have bought him some ****ing clothes while they were there.
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So rich and white it's like I'm runnin gainst a cheeeeesecaaaaake
This is why to me, there are a LOT of trilogies that are easily superior to either of the star wars trilogies.. Or if that didn't make any sense, I mean that the original trilogies weren't even in my top 2.. LOTR will always and forever be the best trilogy.
Imo The OT trumps LOTR. And if you see the impact of the OT on popular culture back in the 70's and 80's and compare that to the impact of LOTR in the last decade, well it's not even a contest.
So whoever made the bigger impact (by dint of simply existing first) is the inherently superior one? Try using a Gutenburg press for your mass production and see if you miss the industrial sized modern equipment.
LotR is technically and artistically superior to the OT, with better dialogue, writing, story, acting, set design, etc. Two different genres of film, two different time periods of production, two different trilogies all together. But I can sit down and enjoy them equally. I'd have to flip a coin to call favorites.
__________________ I did not hit her, it's not true. It's bullshit. I did not hit her. I did naawwt.
Feb 18th, 2012 01:04 AM
