This battle takes place away from Palpatine's Dark Side Nexus, but he is in a young Clone body and Peaking in power.
Caedus is likewise Peaked in power, and ready to go.
They both will battle in Palpatine's Office, for supremacy as Sith Lords.
1. Saber
2. Force
3. All. Out.
Who survives this bloody matchup?
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
Last edited by Battlemaster on Apr 17th, 2012 at 09:00 AM
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
Last edited by Battlemaster on Apr 17th, 2012 at 09:12 AM
It's really weird, if you do the math then DE Sidious really is overrated.
DE Sidious knows every power, supposedly, however, no matter what he can't seem to overcome a Pre-Jedi Academy(even) Luke and his friends.
He constantly struggles, getting killed off here and there, and later when Leia starts glowing like a radioactive cockroach, suddenly Luke rapes him.
This same Luke became more experienced and had trouble with the likes of an inexperienced lizard with an ego.
Then Caedus comes along and is able to handily defeat an uber-experienced Kyle Katarn (Who could likely narrowly defeat DE Luke, who defeated DE Sidious) along with a few other Jedi Knights, and he proceeds to give "Most Epic Version of Luke in Existence" hell, before finally being defeated.
Doing a bit of rough/basic math would indicate Caedus would at least defeat DE Sidious narrowly making Caedus and Not Sidious the deadliest Sith Lord in history, next to Darth Galactus.
Where does Darth Bane fit in with all this?
We know he would crush Desann, whereas a Post-DE Luke could not, and we know through basic math, that if he were at peak-power; wearing orbalisks and at close range (Out of range of Force Storms) he would likely also defeat DE Sidious narrowly.
The real question would realistically, and in actuality, be Darth Bane versus Darth Caedus as (based off of actual killing-ability and not "possible" feats) most powerful Sith Lord.
That fight could probably go either way, I don't know.
However, if the "Force Storm" thing is supposed to be Palpy's real reason for the "Most powerful Sith Lord in history" thing, as long as we're going off actual capability and not brag or Writer's Fiat, then Darth Galactus would trump Sidious, with his ability to kill the life on an entire world in a whisper.
Then again, N is basically just an energetic-consciousness infused into armor, so perhaps Sidious just counts as the most destructive Sith Lord in an organic form.
Still not the deadliest though, aside from the Force Storm.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
__________________ Originally posted by Arhael Okay, look. Um, me feels no agenda to meeting and vacuum in leadership position, so me has composed 12 point plan for good happy success.
The claims you make are entirely unsupported and appeals to "basic math" aren't equitable to canonical evidence. You might as well have finished every sentence with "...because I say so." At least it would be a little more honest.
Sabers:
Tough one. Sidious as of RotS demonstrated ability to go toe-in-toe with Yoda and Windu, not to mention him owning 3 “celebrated swordsmen” within seconds. I’d assume DE Sidious would be at least on par with his RotS self, if not slightly superior due to his younger body.
Caedus’s saber skills, on the other hand, were second only to Luke’s. He defeated handily Jedi team, giving Kyle Katarn a run for his money.
I’d give an edge here to Sidious, but it’s really almost too close to call.
Force:
Even if we exclude the influence of Dark Side Nexus, still I’d think Sidious’s Force powers are at least as good as at the time of RotS.
Caedus is also powerful. Possibly more powerful than Darth Vader (IIRC book cover claimed this). However, I don’t think that Sidious would be pinned down to a chair in a fashion Luke held Caedus.
In Force contest an edge to Sidious.
All-out:
Decent match-up, pretty close IMHO.
DE Sidious takes 6/10.
__________________ Theory is like a box of tools. It must be useful. It must function. And not for itself.
Force - Definitely Sidious. The reason is simple. Caedus unlike other Sith used only his inner potential, while Sidious fed on suffering of others, draining life energy from whole planet and various dark rituals. Simple fact that Sidious blows up instead of simply dying already proves that.
All out - Toss up. There are several things to consider. Sidious is superior in power, yet, Caedus' defenses are superior enough to nullify effect, though he would be on defensive most of the time. Sidious is far more evil and angry, which gives him another credit in terms of power, yet, it puts extreme toll on his body. While Jacen is as self-controlled during fight as a Jedi and gets only stronger experiencing pain.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
In basic terms, though, Caedus would very, very likely put DE Luke out of commission - something DE Sidious couldn't handle.
I'd definitely see Caedus beating Sidious in a close lightsaber duel, though. Reasonably close.
Force-wise, I don't remember any impressive TK feats for Sidious in Dark Empire.
Baring something more impressive than his PT days, I think it's reasonable to say that LotF Luke could probably restrain Sidious in a manner similar to Caedus, if Sidious didn't have the aid of his Nexus.
Force-wise, it's a close call with he and Caedus; this time with the slight edge going to Sidious.
All Out seems like it would be Caedus narrowly - what with Sidious not being able to safely deploy a Force Storm in such a narrow space.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
Caedus takes 9/10 - against DE Luke, who beat Sidious
Caedus takes 7/10 against DE Sidious
Remember, no Force Storm (his only true trump-card) for Sidious, due to the close and unsafe proximity of their fight.
And also no Dark Side Nexus.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
The part where you think your unsupported claims and appeals to common sense constitute fact... which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got you into trouble on another thread not too long ago.
Really? Which thread was that? I recall a thread where I brought up an apparent unknown tidbit of knowledge, and after some initial disbelief, everyone silently conceded to the fact that they had learned something new about Jedi/Sith lore.
And yes, my earlier post on this thread was very much about simple observations based upon common sense, which by it's very nature is rational and logical.
Pretty much everyone here is aware, that the later Peak-Evolved heavy-hitter characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke.
People aren't so stupid that I have to lay out every simple fact for them.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
I recall this thread, in which you were brought to task by pretty much every single remaining regular poster on this forum for your blatant lack of evidence.
Everything you've described is textbook logical fallacy. Make your claim, support your claim. Relying solely on transient consensus is inept.
Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.
They're not idiots. They back-checked what I posted and saw that it was true.
I'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.
Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that. You don't need a super-computer or a note signed in blood by George Lucas to tell you that.
If you're saying otherwise, then you're essentially saying that DE Luke is as powerful as LotF Luke, which in itself is unsupported and fallacious.
Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk.
__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
Eurgh. This is the worst kind of internet posturing. People didn't stop responding because they were tacitly conceding, they stopped responding because you're boring. And as far as I can tell, you yourself failed to respond ("dropped the argument") to Arhael's post observing the utter inanity of trying to draw a direct correlation between titles and combat ability.
By even the most crass standards of e-peen brinksmanship, you've got no ground to stand on.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: That argument boiled down to a shouting match while ignoring the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions which had provoked the confusion in the first place. It's hardly a crowning achievement of discourse, let alone a successful first step in a campaign to invade a message board.
Eurgh. Not only have you constructed a strawman for Spencer to defend, you are holding it to a higher standard of evidence than you are willing to meet.
Protip: None of us (with the possible exception of DP) have the energy or inclination to indulge in a protracted internet-war. We've thrashed out positions and lines of argumentation on most topics and most disputes consist of shorthand references to memories of such arguments. What I'm saying is that the orthodoxy has ossified into a fairly coherent body politik.
If you want to win the internet, it'll take a fair bit of effort to get anyone to confront you in a line-by-line dispute, let alone sway the opinion of the masses. Might I suggest that you try a little more humilitytact and at the very least substantiate your claims?
Well, lack of display doesn't prove that he didn't have them. If every single character would be demonstrating moving star destroyers, it would be boring. And after all he is not Galen Marek to waist his effort on useless things.
Actually, he did display incredible feats. In fight with Yoda he was orchestrating multiple platforms laughing, while Yoda had to heavily concentrate to catch and throw a single one. And by Dark Empire he became much more powerful.
He contained so much power inside him that he was exploding on death. Very few Sith could contain such amount of dark energy inside them. Jacen used only his inner potential. He became Sith, yet, he still could experience love. And the most distinction is that he was selfless, when all Sith are as selfish as it could be. He became one of the worth Sith in the galaxy, yet, instead of meaningless domination and power last he had goals to forge better galaxy. While Sith like Palpatine could gain power beyond any Jedi, Jasen didn't get much more powerful by becoming Sith, the only extra source of power for him was his own anger and pain.
And that Nihilus could defeat Sidious. And that Bane could defeat Sidious. And that Caedus would defeat Sidious. And that Bane would crush Desann. All claims for which you've provided zero evidence.
No, but you do need evidence. You haven't provided any. Appeals to common sense, basic math, and other expressions of the same concept constitute a fallacious [read: wrong] argument.
Have I?
This is a blatant strawman.
I haven't made a single claim about any of this and, as such, have no need to prove anything. I'm extremely clever that way.
Yes, he is as powerful. Another matter is that in LotF he is much more skilled and wiser. Power doesn't grow over decades, potential is always there, with practice power limits can be reached very fast but at the same time decrease over time. Luke became very powerful by the DE, then towards NJO his potential dramatically decreased, then during NJO he got back into shape and afterwards more or less stayed in his prime. Also, he could become even more powerful in any of those times but he would never abuse Force in a way Galen did and test his limits as often.
[Clarification: that is to say, arguing about administrative practices of the Prequel-Era Jedi Order is boring. Kind of like arguing about trade routes or ink monopolies: important to the fictional characters on whom the policies are imposing, but utterly irrelevant to even the most die-hard fan.]
Apr 17th, 2012 08:57 AM
