Registered: May 2010
Location: No clue. Looks.... Blue?
I agree, Sidious and Plagueis aren't as deserving of the title Dark Lord.
I think its Bane. He mastered all the tools of the Sith, strength, sublty, cunning, and sheer will power. I mean, he made Kaan look forward to using the Thought Bomb. Diplomacy, telling someone to go to Hell, and making them look forward to the trip there. <- Bane's little trickery.
Hey, if the Sith Master finds a way to live forever that requires him to brutally take over the body of his apprentice during the fight, its all fair. They had a chance.
I still think valuing the Sith Order over yourself isn't in fact very Sithly, especially creating an order where you were perfectly happy for your apprentice to become more powerful than you and overthrow you. Sidious on other hand wanted to live forever.
__________________ THE POLL IS A LIE!! YOUR VOTES DO NOT MATTER!! RUN!! SHE IS COMING!!
UN...LIMITEEEEEEEED...VOTES!! THAT IS HER TRUE POWER!!
Registered: May 2010
Location: No clue. Looks.... Blue?
I see it as more of a necessity. Bane knew that the Sith needed to stay small in number, and so decided on 2. However, he also knew that the Dark Side had to have the strongest rule, so he instituted the Rule of Two, so the apprentice must kill the master before they take an apprentice. And its all fueled by the hatred of the Jedi. Thats the part that makes it Sithly.
Palpatine wanting to live forever is fine, theres nothing in the Rule of Two to stop him. If the apprentice can't kill him, and make him stay dead, they aren't worthy of the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.
What's your opinion on Krayt? He made his order to serve him and his ideals, so that it'd carry on if he died (or when he was out of action) but not intending to die if he could help it.
Wasn't The Order of One basically the same kind of thing as the Brotherhood of Darkness? Because if it was then the fact that all Sith Lords were considered equal, even if there was a leader, and if Krayt really believed it, then I think a Sith that wanted power just for himself would be better. Imo a true Sith shouldn't share power, or as little of it as possible.
__________________ THE POLL IS A LIE!! YOUR VOTES DO NOT MATTER!! RUN!! SHE IS COMING!!
UN...LIMITEEEEEEEED...VOTES!! THAT IS HER TRUE POWER!!
Oh no, in the One Sith all were not equal. Not remotely.
To Krayt, the purpose of the Sith was to be an extension of the leader and their power, nothing more. They do what's ordered, they die when ordered, and they are trained to be loyal to the Sith order's goals. They are all one Sith with one will- Krayt's will.
The positions of authority reflect this- the Voice, the Fist, the Hands, etc.. The second-in-command of the One Sith, Wyyrlok, is has the position of Voice because he symbolically speaks with Krayt's voice when Krayt is not around. While they may be powerful in their own right, all Sith but one are subservient to that one. And lower-rank sith are all subservient to them, and so on, down to non-darths being subservient to darths, with rank earned by strength and success.
When there is a dispute in leadership, there is no question of compromise. One kills the other, and everyone else follows the victor.
Ah I didn't realise that. Though I have one more question. Were Krayt's goals somehow "noble" more than driven by his list for power and dominance. Didn't he want to rule to make Galaxy a better place and make those ruling it stronger?
__________________ THE POLL IS A LIE!! YOUR VOTES DO NOT MATTER!! RUN!! SHE IS COMING!!
UN...LIMITEEEEEEEED...VOTES!! THAT IS HER TRUE POWER!!
No, not noble. After the CW Krayt ended up on Korriban and studied from a Sith Spirit, then when he was captured by the Yuuzhan Vong and put in the Embrace of Pain he had a vision of himself leading the One Sith. So Krayt was really all about the power.
He felt the galaxy needed to be controlled by his order, though it's arguable how 'noble' that was (especially when, after his death and rebirth, he viewed the galaxy should go through the same thing).
Basically his One Sith were a model of how he viewed the galaxy should be.
The ultimate goal of the sith was to destroy the jedi order and bring the galaxy under their control. Since Palpatine managed to do this, I would say he is the ultimate sith. Although previous sith from Bane down to Plagueis helped in laying the ground work, it was still Palpatine who brought the galaxy under his control by manipulating both sides of the CW and playing the jedi like fools right under their noses, all while influencing the senate in giving him more and more executive powers. And when push came to shove, Palpatine was able to whip out a lightsaber of his own and go toe-2-toe with the best of the jedi.
Tools Palpatine also mastered, and to a very high degree.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
without Bane's ground work Palpatine would have had NOTHING! and again Sidious never properly took the mantle of "Lord of the Sith" which imo (and Bane's) weakens the Sith. if Sidious actually challenged and lost to Plagues then Plagues would have found another (probably more powerful and cunning) to replace him with making the Sith MUCH more powerful than Sidious ever could.
And Sidious leaving no room for a more powerful Sith to replace him also causes more problems. he was able to create more bodies and increase his power right? but if say Vader (before he became a cyborg) or just another more power person had the chance to do the same his power would completely eclipse Palpatine's effectively making the Sith ever more uber
Registered: May 2010
Location: No clue. Looks.... Blue?
Exactly. Palpatine did not have a rightful claim to the mantle of Dark Lord. He killed his master in his sleep rather than facing him. If that was required for him to win, he was not done learning from him. Sure, Palpatine proved that he is the best manipulator around. But not the best Sith. He didn't live up to his Order's ideals.
And Plagues was the same. He killed his master as they were both deflecting rubble from crushing them after an explosion. It was a cheap shot not much better than what was done to him
EDIT: Niether ever became true Lords of the Sith since they stole the mantle underhandedly instead of proving they were worthy of it.
__________________
"I'M THE JUGGERMAN B!TCH"
Last edited by juggerman on Jun 27th, 2012 at 03:00 PM
Bane HELPED in laying the ground work along with many other sith after him, but Palpatine is the one who made it happen. Darth Sidious, according to canon sources and even Lucas himself, was the revenge of the sith. Bane wasn't.
I don't think Bane's personal opinion on how exactly the mantle should be taken matters in the grande scheme of things. Sidious managed to bring about the ultimate goal of the sith, so I doubt Bane was rolling around in his grave all because Sidious didn't fight Plagueis fairly.
Palpatine proved his superiority over Plagueis by both clouding Plagueis' mind and manipulating him.
Plagueis believes Palpatine's skill in subterfuge surpasses any sith before him (including Bane), so, no, Plagueis would not have found an apprentice like Palpatine any time too soon...if ever.
The ultimate goal of the sith had been accomplished. Darth Sidious was sitting on the throne as ruler of the galaxy, so why in hell would he want that taken away from him (lol)? No true sith would.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Bane created a way for the Sith to have their revenge at all. that doesnt really sound like he "helped" as much as he "laid the foundation" imo
he did bring about the ultimate goal of the Sith but again my point was had he fought Plagues and lost another (probably more powerful) being would have been the Sith's revenge. and have he waited until he could challenge Plagues upfront he may have been taught about creating life or any number of other things making him even more powerful
"any Sith before him" does not mean he couldnt have found another eventually. besides Plagues may have very well created Anaikin who had the potential to completely dwarf Sidious' power had he not been a little whiney b!tch which btw he wouldnt have been if brought up in the ways of the Sith. subterfuge can be taught
an excellent point actually. but how long did that revenge actually last? longer than the Jedi being dominant maybe? nope.
a more powerful Sith (im really thinking Anaikin here but maybe another could have been found/created) could have held on to that power longer than Sidious who was dumped over the balconey by punk a$$ Vader.
i know he came back after that but still... point is Sidious and Plagues for that matter put themselves before the entire Sith way which imo makes them not as much "Sithy" as Bane
Jun 26th, 2012 08:03 PM
