@Temp, yeah that was a joke regarding his annoyance of Sidious being one of the most powerful sith, it wasn't an attempt to get the debate going again, when in fact, I don't really feel like debating.
@SM, let me start out by saying, I don't give two shits about gaining your respect. Let's get that clear. You're giving yourself far too much credit if you think I do. lol
As far as your scans go, most of your arguments to the link you gave me, I've addressed them with Nai, which is why I asked you to read over them, which you didn't want to do, which is your problem, but don't call me lazy because of something you are unwilling to do. Hell, responding to your link point by point would result in a lengthy message, so I don't see what the problem is in reading the arguments I've already posted in this very thread.
Furthermore, you did not address my question to DP. All you did was give an answer as to why Yoda lost to Sidious, which isn't what I was asking. That Sidious retreated to the rising podium in order to gain an upper hand, which was to put his force abilities to better use in the senate arena, is something I agreed to. But the podium definitely wasn't something that gave Sidious any advantage in the saber duel. In fact nearly falling over the edge of the podium was what caused Sidious to drop his saber. Yes Yoda's ferocious attack nearly sent Sidious over the edge, but on even ground there would have been no edge to nearly fall over, as Sidious would have far more room to leap away. Yes, Sidious took a risky route in directing the saber duel to the rising podium, but it's one that worked out anyway. Sidious held his own against Yoda in a straight saber duel despite being in a very disadvantageous position, with hardly any room to maneuver and having to rely almost solely on his saber to defend against Yoda's attacks, while his opponent, Yoda, being a lot smaller, had plenty of room to utilize his acrobats to do circles around Sidious. Yet even when Yoda's assault nearly caused Sidious to go over the edge of the podium, Sidious quickly recovered from nearly going over and dropping his saber by retaliating with a blast of lightning all before Yoda could finish off an unarmed Sidious. Sidious survived a saber duel with Yoda, despite being in a position of disadvantage, but he had an answer to losing his saber. You can ignore Sidious' disadvantages on the podium all you like, but they're still there. You can come up with an excuse as to why Sidious retreated to the podium, but the excuses do not take those advantages away.
So again, what makes you so certain that Sidious wouldn't do as good on equal ground, when he was more than capable of surviving despite his position of disadvantage on the podium? Yes, Sidious had a higher chance of defeating Yoda in the senate arena because of the pods he can use against Yoda, which is how he did nearly overwhelm Yoda, causing Yoda to lose his balance at one point. This is the most probable reason why Sidious retreated to rising podium to get to the arena. It definitely couldn't be to give him any advantage in the saber duel, considering that the podium limited him in room to maneuver far more than it did his opponent. But Sidious' decision to retreat to the senate arena in order to put his force powers to better use, doesn't mean Yoda would have defeated him on equal ground.
As for the pod sequence, no I didn't respond to it when you wanted me to, but that doesn't excuse your inability to address my argument when it arrived. You were reaching considerably, and I addressed why, which you still didn't attempt to refute. Sidious easily hurled three senate pods over his head on the dime against the force of gravity, but your excuse was that Sidious had the engines on (or whatever). Ok, so he uses the force to forcefully rip the pods out of their restraints (which you can see the sparks to prove they were forcefully ripped out), and then suddenly decides to manipulate the controls and turn the engines on? And the pod Yoda caught, did Yoda decide to turn the machine off in order to impress Sidious? You wasn't being reasonable at all. Neither Yoda nor Sidious was using the force to manipulate the controls or engines of the pods, they both hurled them against the force of gravity, except Sidious was able to do so with three. The reason why Yoda was hardpressed to handle one was obviously because of the force it required to stop the machine coming down on him at great speed. As for Sidious choosing to evade Yoda's redirected pod instead of catching it, is not proof that he was unable to any more than Yoda choosing not to absorb Sidious' first lightning attack (instead choosing to attempt to block with one hand) means that Yoda was unable to, especially considering the ease in which Sidious was handling the pods earlier. You can see that Sidious didn't even attempt to catch the pod, just like Yoda didn't attempt to absorb Sidious first lightning assault.
All in all, you still didn't refute anything I said. Instead you tried to justify why you attacked my username, and accused me of being petty just because I called your arguments silly. The one who's butthurt, is you. And today it took a few words on my part to spark anger in you, which caused you to rehash your same silly arguments--still not addressing my question.
I just recently addressed Sidious' and Yoda's last lightning sequence with Nai. If you choose not to read it then that's on you. Yoda's redirected lightning blast didn't do anything to Sidious other than blast him and Yoda apart, ending the fight in a stalemate. The source I provided stands, and it fits perfectly with how the movie depicted the fight: Sidious proved too powerful for Yoda to defeat. Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious in a saber duel despite Sidious being in a position of disadvantage, because Sidious had an answer to being disarmed. Yoda was almost overwhelmed by Sidious hurling multiple senate pods at him. Yoda's final attack only blasted them apart, it didn't defeat Sidious. So how would Yoda have had a better chance in defeating Sidious on equal ground? Is it because Sidious wouldn't have pods to use against him? That's not proof Yoda had better chance on defeating him on even ground. Is it by Yoda being a more skilled saber duelist? Well if that's the case, why couldn't he defeat Sidious when Sidious was in a position of disadvantage?
Until you can address everything (well the important parts anyway) instead of continuing with your desperate reaching, then I'm not interested in hearing anymore of your lame BS you call an argument.
And who did you brutally destroy? GTFOH
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
To be honest, no idea. I did see it in a source ages ago. But this time I just copy-pasted from one of KMC threads. I have neither time nor will to dig for sources anymore. :/
I think the lesser intellectual beings on this forum figured out the best way to "win" a debate is to keep on typing, and making sure it's long, drawn out paragraphs, regardless of coherence, until the other person just says "I don't care anymore".
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
Sidious' arguments are actually really well explained and are valid views. If you disagree that's fine, but the name-calling and derisive tone used because you don't like what he is saying is really childish, especially for people who I'm assuming are in their 20's.
Just last night you worked up the nerve to waste time in copying and pasting arguments of yours which were addressed and arguments of mine which were not, and then considered it brutally destroying someone?
Basically you expect me to read the link you sent me which was several posts worth of arguments, but you're unwilling to read anything I have to say? That's fine.
BTW, either you did read my post or you were just scared to because you don't want to be wrong on the issue. But as I said, that's fine, but your picture doesn't help hide the fact that you're just a wuss.
Thanks oaa.
But psmith is just a troll who doesn't know how debating works. He just pops in and out and says "so and so stomps" and considers that owning someone in a debate.
BTW, I actually didn't mean for my post to be that long, but I was tired and I couldn't tell if I was getting my point across clear enough.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I'm seriously wondering whom you are talking about. While I might sound pretty agressive most of the time, I'm rather sitting in front of my PC with some tea and occassional vanilla tabacco being perfectly calm. I save my anger for the Autobahn.
You're not even remotely important enough for me to generate any emotional response, other than occasional facepalms, if you see them as such. I'm truely sorry to disappoint.
@Sidious 66
So it's your lazyness that spreads to your thinking and the contents of your postings. Nice to have that one sorted out.
Thanks for proving my point?
*Sigh*
When people use the phrase "in fact", it would be marvelous if something even remotely resembling a fact would follow. In this case, it doesn't. In fact I haven't been posting on this forum between January and September 2013. In fact, before that, my absense almost lasted from July to December 2012 (and before that, from January to May). So in fact I'm not even here to argue as much as you - apparently - want me to.
And even then, I merely react. There is hardly a thread in this forum, in which Sidious isn't featured. If he isn't part of the starting post already, some issue regarding Sidious comes up, and I just reply. I have neither started any thread with the intention of Sidious losing, nor did I start many of the "Sidious debates" going on in this forum.
In fact, my personal thought on the issue of Sidious standing relative to his fellow Sith Lords is not as far away from you or Gideon as you may think. But I arrived there from a quite different angle, which is not applicable in the context of versus fights, and most of the reasoning the duo of yourself and Tempest presents here is an insult to every halfway intelligent person.
Finally: I'm here for the sake of arguments. I don't care about changing people's opinion. I'm just practicing my English here, in combination with analysis based on deconstruction. The results? Not important. Existing opposition is. So, and I asked Gideon this question several times before: What should I do? Argue in favor for Sidious and give the Sith Lord another mouthpiece here? Hardly.
And here, confirmation bias clearly takes it's toll.
I've said that Filoni didn't do a good job, yes. How is that arguing against Sidious? I even said, that there would have been nothing to complain about, had he demolished the Zabrak brothers. I even made suggestions how that ridiculous amount of ownage could have been depicted, to make Sidious appear godlike. How is that arguing against the character?
Which is, by the way, nothing I do. I argue against your reasoning which you utilize as basis for putting Sidious on a pedestal. That you appear inable to seperate those things is quite alarming.
Nope. I weren't "called out". Gideon asserted that this is the case, and after I performed some digging into my posting history, he had that argument crushed so hard, that he didn't dare to pursue this line of thought further. I wonder, why you haven't learned from your brother-at-arms.
Glancing into my posting history, you can find me arguing against the Ancient Sith, against Kun (often represented by IKC). I've sided with Yoda against Kun and Revan, than talked the Jedi Master down again. I've sided with Dooku in some threads and talked him down in others. I've even utilized "pro-Sidious" arguments, in order to argue for Yoda, while attacking the same arguments at the same time in another thread. So what?
And, I see, you have ignored my words again: That I argue you, has nothing to do with yourself. I, frankly, don't care if you change your opinion or see the error of your ways. I'm just here for the fun. And that would by my fun, specifically.
Yeah. That's certainly what I am here for. Hence my generally friendly way of posting.
It's pretty funny how you still don't get the point. I'm not "offended" by your username. I find it hilarious. I'm not taking it serious but am laughing about it.
Nope, sorry. You can't get on my level of being childish. My level of being childish is already head and shoulders about your level of being grown-up.
Pal. You are dodging an argument right now. You ignored it before, you proclaimed it didn't happen later and - just here and now - you just skip it again. Apparently you also deleted our entire discussion from your mind, because otherwise this claim is pretty much inexplainable.
*Sigh*
Sidious would need to bent in order to hit Yoda. Have a look at how close Dooku's blade comes to the Jedi Master. Most of their saber contacts happen in the middle between them despite Dooku's huge reach advantage (as I said before), and Dooku never comes close to hitting Yoda with his blade, because he doesn't bent down. Well. In fact, he does, during their final saber-lock and he does clearly bent forwards there.
And again: I did mathematically proof that this is not the case. Would you stop ignoring facts please. On the podium, Sidious reach advantage is 36 to 52 percent greater than on equal ground and Yoda is not on a "higher part" relative to Sidious. Just relative from the ground, which - as I demonstrated - serves nobody but Sidious himself.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Wow. You're again trying to argue hard mathematical facts based on your interpretation of character faces and the fact that Sidious was laughing at one point. Do I need to explain to you why that simply doesn't fly?
Dooku pulled an elaborated escape plan off, or he would have been cut into pieces sooner or later. The very same faith would await Sidious, if he where to face Yoda on equal ground. May I remind you that he tried to run before the Jedi Master cornered him with his lightsaber out?
My bad.
It's getting rather boring to point out the errors in your logic. Firstly: How does Sidious have "less room to maneuver than his opponent". Yoda and him are fighting on the podium and both could manouver there as they liked. So the have the same space for manouvers. That Sidious choses to stay on the low section is only logical due to the advantages that grants to him, but hardly a basis for assuming he was at a position of disadvantage.
And again: Yoda stays close to ground level even when jumping in most of his lightsaber fights. So how does not having access to the aformentioned ground-level not influence him in a negative way?
Even if we assume, that the lack of moving space was a disadvantage for Sidious, everything else was an advantage for him, especially compared to fighting on equal ground. Still, he loses his lightsaber.
And before you come at me again, with the notion, that this won't happen on equal ground, answer one question for me: Why did Sidious drop his lightsaber? Obviously, the weightless weapon wouldn't have cause him to go over the edge, if he hadn't dropped it. So, the logical answer appears to be, that Yoda attacked him with so much power that he almost went over the edge and couldn't keep his weapon in hand. And the latter part could happen everywhere.
What does that even have to do with "reaching"? I'm just offering answers to your "question". Apparently, you don't like the answers. Not my problem, is it?
And once more, I can just look in astonishment, how you try to argue facts based on the interpretation of factual evidence from other sources. That's like putting your hand in a flame and keep it there despite excruciating pain, because some book said that fire can't harm you. And what would you call a person who did something like that?
It's logical fallacy time again. That some action happened after another action, doesn't mean, that the later one happened because of the first. Why would Sidious drop his lightsaber because of almost falling from the Podium? Just think about the absurdity of directly linking those two things. Did he need to grap something on the platform with both hands in order to not fall down from it? I'd love to hear how that happened, according to your thoughts.
What the...
That "ball of energy" was growing between them the entire time. The power-struggle reversed, yes. Apparently, with a better end for Yoda. And on equal ground, Yoda wouldn't have dropped down into the depths a building. They both would have been flung to walls / furniture, much like as it happened at their beginning of their confrontation. Which would probably have led to them duking it out with lightsabers again.
And now ask yourself, what would have happened, hadn't Yoda jumped up from lower ground and lost his lightsaber being instantly greeted with lightning, but kept it in hand, as Mace Windu did. Would Sidious have died under his own lightning being reflected back at him? Would Yoda have stood there, absorbing it with his blade, much like Obi-Wan does to Dooku in AotC, until the Sith Lord wouldn't have been capable of continuing?
Exactly. I was just asking myself, where you have seen somebody in a "position of disadvantage" during that lightning sequence.
Thanks for ignoring all I posted and continuing, by posting your own, entirely unrelated thoughts. Must be fun.
You got that wrong again, pal. Your questions were answered while your username was attacked. That you apparently blacked out everything you didn't like there and jumped on that single point is not surprising, but still quite sad.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
So now Sidious and Yoda had even room to maneuver on the podium? Yoda freely utilizes his acrobats, doing leaps around Sidious, while Sidious can either take a few steps on lower or higher parts, or just turn around in circles. Anyone who watched the fight should be able to tell Sidious was far more limited. Hell, DP, who isn't even a fan of Sidious didn't even seem to disagree with that. It's something so obvious.
As with SM, there you go again with my username, but any response from me regarding your guys issue with it and the fact that you guys feel the need to point out the obvious, means I'm the one who is butthurt. lmao
Look, my username is not changing. In fact, I might put a nice pic of Sidious as my avatar sometime later.
BTW, you seem to be the only one who finds my username funny. lol
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
I never agreed that either Yoda or Sidious were at a disadvantage. All I said was that Sidious dropping his Saber due to his position was initially Arhael's argument which I just found an interesting point. But since we're not even shown the scene it's difficult to decipher what exactly happened.
I've always seen Sidious vs Yoda as being fairly even and never really speculated on who had the more advantageous position. Apart from when Sidious had the high ground of course.
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Are you really that dense?
They are both fighting on a confined space. That one of them either choses or is forced to fight on less of that space than his opponent is irrelevant to that fact. Sidious could have utilized the sides of the podium, just as Yoda did. But either he didn't want to do so, because the advantages the middles position offered to him. Or he was forced to stay in that middle position, because Yoda was the superior fighter.
Thanks for ignoring two posts worth of arguments, to come back to the issue of your username again. And that in a way completely unrelated to my posting. Not that I predicted something like that happening. Oh, wait. I actually did:
"Your questions were answered while your username was attacked. That you apparently blacked out everything you didn't like there and jumped on that single point is not surprising, but still quite sad."
Rinse and repeat.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"