I always thought Post-DE Luke was ridiculous for body leaping and having an Imperial Guard to cow his Dark Council. And that whole thing with sapping a planet lifeless? Shame!
Just because this unnamed character beat Vitiate, doesn't mean he's anything. As Luke beat DE Sidious, Meetra beat Nihilus.
^For when she logs back in to endlessly wank a Jedi Master from SWTOR.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Except, DE Luke lost to Sidious in a lightsaber duel when Leia was not present. Except, DE Sidious was far more powerful than DE Luke in every capacity, especially since he was in a perfected clone of his younger self, no amount of skill can make up for having fraction the speed and strength of your opponent. DE clearly demonstrates, from their first duel, that Sidious was better than Luke.
Same goes for Vitiate>Hero.
It's a fact, Luke did surpass Sidious in NJO - I'll give you that. But someone who is disarmed by a young, barely trained Kyp Dorrun with the Force alone, and who has his soul ripped out by Exar Kun's 5,000 year old spirit, is not more powerful than Sidious.
The relevant point I'm making in this thread for Revan is that Hero has no feat that outmatches all of Revan's, and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced.
YOU'RE trying to get me to separate warrior classes from mage classes like this is an RPG and as if SW discriminates one as being more suited for combat than another, when really the mage is just a more powerful warrior class in the hierarchy of this mythos. YOU'RE also trying to get me to separate canons and eras and accept concepts like PIS and CIS to keep your sanity. I won't do that.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 17th, 2013 at 08:16 AM
This is what Vitiate unleashed on Revan when became serious:
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor's attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him.
Just imagine the level of power that Vitiate unleashed in this case.
I do believe that the power shown in the link above would have been absolutely lethal and that it would require an individual of HoT's caliber to withstand it, but it seems like as if Vitiate was on a different page against Revan in comparison.
The ritual failed due to actions of Scourge and Revan. Scourge was privy to immense level of useful information about Vitiate and he helped the Jedi Order to undermine ultimate plans of the Sith Emperor.
We don't know this. Things are not so black and white.
Maybe Vitiate was not in the position to fight at all at that time and was able to in a powerful nexus.
Valid point. I think that HoT had developed/acquired some remarkable talents in the long run.
Vitiate didn't had human eyes. He had void like eyes.
He was born naturally attuned with the dark side; not neutral like almost everybody else.
This is correct.
Vitiate significantly expanded his personal powerbase after his second confrontation with Revan by creating Voices and Children.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Nov 17th, 2013 at 11:57 AM
1. I'm not making any CRPG distinctions. This is some kind of unique strawmanning here.
2. The comparison is invalid because Luke as of fighting Exar Kun's spirit was not the same as Vitiate; specifically, he was not a thousand year old Force oddity who had been immersed in Dark Side techniques and sapped the collective strengths of millions and was capable of Grand Theft Me's. I'm fairly certain that if Kun's spirit tried anything on Vitiate, he's get donkey stomped. Freedan Nadd's spirit was arguably stronger in the Force than some PT Jedi, healing fatal injuries and attacking Jedi masters solely using the Force - both feats done across lightyears. When Kun got his amulets, Nadd was vanquished.
So if you intend to argue the comparison, you have to use something called context.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
"The Voice is the conduit for the Emperor's words." - Servant Two.
"The Emperor is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delives his orders.[...]To guard against further vunerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspire against him. Centuries later [after his confrontation with Revan], this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.
As Vitiate apparently retains a part of his power in his original body (otherwise the Voice wouldn't make much sense at all), there is some seperation of power between the Voice and Vitiate's original body. Which is only logical, as a body without Force energy is, pretty much, dead, as we all know from the KotoR-2-experience.
I think, you're correct there.
Yes, he gets some kind of power from them (Force energy, life energy) But they are, as well, getting power from him, given that they have a permanent connection to his mind and share his immortality.
"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his indisidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.
Emphasis mine. The same page notes that the First Son was "the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power."
So, apparently, he leaves some of his power with his children and I doubt, that this part of his power somehow "returns" when they die. Meaning, essentially, that the Consular storyline resulted in a further weakening of Vitiate.
See above. They are imprinted with a part of his power. How else would he use them as "spies" without them even being aware of that?
And is the term "power" referring to his force abilities specifically, Neph? The last time, I have read that particular statement, it was in reference to his "power base" (Hands, Voice, Wrath, Children), which did obviously grow after his confrontation with Revan. His personal force abilties, though?
Splitting his power at the very least between his Voice, his original body and his children, with potentially even more power delivered to his hands, and occassionally - I've forgotten that - the Imperial Guard drawing on it, I don't see how Vitiate as a person should be as powerful, as he was when Revan faced him (talking about his personal force abilities).
You should differ between actual game-play and storytelling. Just as example: When entering the ship of Darth Angral, T7 tells the HoT that he will go and disable the power reactors for the superweapon, while Kira and the HoT can go deal with Angral. In gameplay terms, the HoT does all the work with one of the two, though.
The second thing is, that I find it rather hard to believe - the same goes for the KotoR games - that having an entire crew, the respective hero will just go on a stroll with one or two of his companions in a quest to save the Galaxy. Taking the cutscene from above, it appears to be "canon", that the Hero, Kira and T7 where actively participating in stopping Darth Angral, when T7 is left out of the equation in terms of game play. Couldn't that apply to other situations as well, as long as there is nobody explicitly left behind (e.g. during the confrontation with the Emperor)?
So there might be 2, 3 or 4 companions with the HoT at some of his more grandious moments, where the gameplay allows only one. And even then: One can't outright dismiss another force user / a combat surgeon with heal abilities / an R2-like astromech / an heavy armed combat specialist or a freaking 300 year old Sith Lord.
And the third problem with this MMORPG "feats" I have, is that their nature is pretty much unknown. We don't know, whether the HoT struggled against Vitiate or stomped him. We don't know, if he just dueled the Sith Emperor in a "classic" match, as its seen in movies and cutscene, or if he was amped with heavy armor, personal shield, medpacks and stimulants. While this may sound like the "Revan might have defeated Malak with blasters and mines" stuff, in this case the options are far more limited and hence - seemingly - far more probable.
How could you even know that, Neph?
If that power is something, Vitiate stored within his children, even unknown to them, then how could they make a difference between their "own" power and that of Vitiate? And I think you are fairly underestimating Kira. When you go on a companion quest with her on Nar Shadda, it is revealed, that she pretty much exterminated an entire rivaling fashion that treated "her people" like slaves on her own. And apparently in a fashion that scared all other people off even years after she left.
Not too shabby, for some almost untrained force using youth, right?
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
You're surprisingly knowledgeable Nai. Did/do you play TOR or is this all from research?
I don't see any separation of power between Vitiates real body and the Voice in those quotes. By all rights, the Voice is exactly what it says it is in the quotes I provided: the vessel in which Vitiates power and consciousness is stored. I think this is likely the case based on Warrior storyline, since in that storyline, Vitiate has been tricked into journeying (as the Voice) into the Dark Heart and was trapped there by Sel-Makor. Vitiate is actually completely trapped there because of this, he can't do anything with his real body, which surely wouldn't be the case if he was only partially occupying it in terms of mind and power. He needed the new Wrath to come to the Dark Heart and kill him before he could be free, at which point his consciousness and power presumably returned to his body none the worse for wear, since Vitiate is ready to create a new Voice immediately after this.
Yes, the Voice is merely something to allow him to interact with the world without any actual threat to his being, but that doesn't mean that it does not possess his full and total power. SWTORE and the codex do not say the Voice has a portion of his strength. They say it possesses 'his incredible power', definitively.
As to how this is possible without him dying, I think its basically established that Vitiate is more of a spirit than a man. He is doing what Kun did, except while still anchored to his real body and possessing proxies.
I see nothing indicating he's giving them power. That they are connected to his mind and share his longevity doesn't indicate he's giving them power. In fact in SWTORE, Scourges profile says this about them:
"For his dedication, Scourge was rewarded with the title of Emperor's Wrath and an eternally agonizing immortality. But unlike the servants of the Hand, the Wrath was spared the crippling binding process so that he may wield his full might to crush the enemies of the Emperor." - pg. 163
So by all rights they are given immortality through this binding process and not given power by that, but crippled for it.
See above on the topic of his Voice. A good deal more power is sunk into the Voice, yet Vitiate was unaffected by its demise. Why should it be different for the Children? In both cases its his very being thats infused in them.
And I don't see how the power wouldn't be regain-able by him. As I said, Vitiates power is 'ever-increasing', so he doesn't weaken himself in the creation of the Children.
They aren't aware of it though. The Children are completely separate personalities to their hosts, as seen in the First Son who is a totally different person to Syo Bakarn. SWTORE says that Vititae 'can see and act on a whim' through the Children, since he shares in their thoughts and can easily possess them at any time. Their very being is bound to his, since as ares pointed out on page 6, it isn't just his power that resides in side them, they are "infused with part of his being". I see no reason that such a close connection wouldn't allow Vitiate to draw on their power if he had need to.
Yes.
"In return, the Emperor draws on his servants (the Hand) strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail." - pg. 163.
Vitiate doesn't ever diminish himself. He only grows stronger. The Vitiate that the Hero fought was more powerful than the one Revan did.
CANON!
I though T7 goes and finds computer access in that mission. He tells them to go shut down the reactors and fight Angral. Its not like he was actually fighting with them at the time.
The Hero doesn't do all of the work, even in gameplay, but remember that Kira is the Hero's padawan at the time and for good reason. The Hero does the lions share of the work since shes much more powerful than Kira (Kira directly says she has no hope of ever being as good as you).
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about T7 fighting Angral with you.
I would disagree. There are missions in the game where the whole crew fights together and that is highlighted as happening. There are missions where its said what the other crew members are doing while you go with one. Furthermore, cutscenes occur and its still just one companion at the time and only your active companion can talk in conversation. Finally, I'm pretty sure there are numerous mentions of purposefully moving in a small team and of others staying on the ship. In this specific case of the Hero of Tython when you assault the Emperor's fortress its explicitly said that you only take one person with you, so I'll take that as meaning that's the Knight's usual modus operandi. If they only take one person with them to fight the freaking Sith Emperor, I doubt they feel the need for the whole team to beat Leeha Narez or whatever.
I mean, with this logic you could argue that the Strike Team took their whole crews with them to fight Revan. Which I highly doubt happened.
Except that in her most grandious moments its noted that the Hero only has one companion (Kira for Angral and T7 for Vititate). Other than that.... before the start of Act II, well, I highly doubt T7 contributed much in battle. And I sincerely doubt Doc does either. A medic is only useful out of combat and in he would only be a liability. He only has heal abilities in gameplay remember. Outside of it its all kolto and stuff. So yeah, I'd dismiss them pretty easily. Guy who's name I don't even remember because he's so forgettable probably barely rates as well. He's just a soldier. And his big thing is that he gets a lot of his own troops killed so I doubt he's all that. I don't see any of the non-Force users as being helpful in a fight against anything better than standard Imperial soldiers, really.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 20th, 2013 at 02:25 AM
I fail to see how this matters. If the Hero won then they won. If they won through stims then they win through stims here too. Its irrelevant.
Because I know how the Children work? You yourself posted the quote:
"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.
Its the Emperor's power that's inside of them aka darkside power. We see this when Vitiate possesses Kira, she starts glowing with red light since she's tapping into that power. The exact same effect occurs (almost) every time you face a Child in the Consular campaign, when you face the First Son and when you fight Vitiate himself.
Either way, its sealed so that most of them are taken as non-force sensitive. One notes that she had no idea she had this kind of power inside of her (she was a regular soldier before). Theres also the fact that Syo isn't nearly as powerful as the First Son.
Finally, Kira is an unfinished Child, recall.
Well she is a force sensitive. And I'm not sure shes almost untrained. She did grow up in a Sith academy. I mean, I'm not saying she's crap, but she is notably out of the HoT's league as well as out of the league of most people you fight. She gets taken captive by some random Sith in Act 1.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 20th, 2013 at 02:30 AM
Ultimately, what the HoT fought was only part of Vitiate as other parts of his essence were withinthe Children. And nothing, other than an ambiguous use of the word "shared", suggest that he could draw power from his Children.
The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?
You mean like Vivicar possessing Yuon P- oh no wait, he WAS draining her.
He isn't just controlling them, he is connected to them mind, body and spirit.
Its very similar. And all it says is that there's a mental link:
"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell."
I think that was either wrong, or the Hands as ares says.
Also, even if he is growing more and more powerful that could easily refer to his full power which he has dispersed amongst himself and his Children.
Except, the mental link between the two is entirely different. One is sustained by machines while the other is created by the Emperor's essence infusing the host.
Nope, case closed, I win. You did good, I did better wooooOOOoooooooo!
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(also if he really couldn't touch it afterwards, how would it still be part of his full power? )
Also, it hasn't been proven that putting portions of his power in them actually diminishes his personal power permanently. Perhaps he simply puts the power in and then replenishes it like with every other Force use.
Ok...
In that the mental link with the Children is FAR deeper and stronger. Why would he be able to drain Revan with a link sustained by machines, but not with the Children who have his freakin essence inside them?????
Also, Vitiate still created the link in both cases, so I fail to see how the thing is sustained makes a lick of difference.