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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode I, II & III » Anakin and the prophesy of the chosen one and TFA kylo ren


Anakin and the prophesy of the chosen one and TFA kylo ren
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

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You seem to disagree with GL's view on the Force and how te Jedi go about keeping balance. However, disagreeing doesn't change the way it is in SW.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2016 09:53 AM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

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things that are put into balance can become unbalanced, the balance had a good 20-25 year run most likely

Old Post Mar 22nd, 2016 07:20 AM
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

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Err ..???


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Old Post Mar 22nd, 2016 07:58 AM
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Darth Luminous
kusemono

Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: (post)
if you feel I am largely equating the Jedi with the Light Side and the Sith with the Dark, well that's pretty much because that's how the films do it

quote: (post)
I also say you are completely incorrect in any claim that the Jedi cannot stop the Dark Side- seeing that is literally the plot of the first six films.


You seem to be going in circles at this point. You insist on using "the light side" to mean the Jedi and "the dark side" to mean the Sith, despite the fact that the light side and the dark side are parts of the Force ( an energy field ) while the Jedi and Sith are groups of people. In doing so, you enable yourself to claim that stopping the dark side is the plot of the first six films - when in fact the overarching objective was stopping the Sith, not the dark side. TESB Yoda even says as much: Stopped they must be.

Hiding behind a deliberate abuse of nomenclature achieves little.

quote: (post)
the Mortis arc in TCW is the aberrant story that needs, effectively, to be ignored, or considered to be an incorrect in-universe position.


There's no reason it should be ignored, other than it rustles people's jimmies because it stepped all over the popular revisionism which took over the fanbase prior to the release of the arc. It's fully consistent with everything in the films and with Lucas' own position which can be gleaned from his various statements about the Force. And it's deeply intertwined with events in the films that presumably are not viewed with the same degree of contempt, such as the notion that Anakin brings balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine.

Star Wars has always been more fundamentally Daoist in its concept of the Force than many people would care to admit. That's why Lucas literally put a yin-yang symbol in the sky hovering over everything.

quote: (post)
you really just need to read back what's already been said- particularly about the definition of the word 'balance'
_

My position is 100% consistent with the traditional, dictionary-based, old-fogey definition of the word balance. On the contrary, it's the revisionist position which has tried to make "balance" include "all light side and no dark side". That's hardly a respect for definitions of words.


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Old Post May 21st, 2016 06:51 PM
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Lord Lucien
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See, George? See why you need to actually think about which words you use?


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Old Post May 22nd, 2016 02:27 AM
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Ushgarak
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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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Ok look, I am tired of heated debates (about this or any other subject). But I will just re-iterate the following points:

- As to Luminous' first claim above- again, all I can sa is that what I said matches the films; it is you providing what I feel is unnecessary complication, likely from other sources. I think Yoda saying 'they' doesn't really change the situation at all- obviously they are talking about things in the embodiment of how the threat is currently represented, but that doesn't change that the overall theme of Star Wars is the triumph of hood over evil, hence the Light Side over the Dark.

- This is still in contradiction of the Mortis arc and I'd rather ignore or rationalise that arc than that of the films. If you like the Mortis arc, all the more power to you

- It's not a good idea to use a 'I looked it up in the dictionary' argument- I am reasonably well acquainted with this area as a subject and that kind of argument is always a mis-use of a dictionary. Words have multiple meanings and there is no sense in which GL's use of it is inconsistent with that multiplicity. I am afraid the only abuse of meaning is from those who say that 'Balance means X, so no matter what GL says about what he means by it it can only mean X'. That's the mis-use of language.

As I said before, George Lucas explained pretty clearly what he meant by balance- that the Light Side is about balanced symbiosis and the Dark Side is the parasitic, unbalanced force. 'Light Side' is his embodiment of balance and the dark side of that which tries to stop it. At least, that has always been my understanding of what he said and remains so to this day. If you are taking something different from it, again, fair enough. Regardless, that is the basis of the idea that Balance, within Star Wars, means all Light Side.

- As to whether GL needs to be more careful with his language- well, god, yes; his failure to explain his concepts on-screen (he doesn't even define what a Sith is) is definitely an issue with the Prequels I acknowledge. None of balance, [prophecy, midi-chlorians, Sith... for that matter, even, really, 'Force' (a particular issue seeing as he claimed. you are meant to be able to start at Episode I) get any adequate treatment. Even how the Jedi work within the Republic has to be deduced.

So no argument from me there.

Mind you, TFA did a pretty poor job of explaining its new concepts as well.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on May 22nd, 2016 at 09:01 AM

Old Post May 22nd, 2016 08:51 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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I don't like explaining in movies.


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Old Post Jun 2nd, 2016 03:14 PM
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Ushgarak
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Well it doesn't have to be a half-hour lecture. ANH only took about 15 seconds to explain what a Jedi was. How difficult could it have been to define a Sith?


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Old Post Jun 2nd, 2016 03:16 PM
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Bashar Teg
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it really doesnt help that TPM jedi council believes in a coming savior who will bring balance to the force...in a time when the sith are presumed extinct and there is peace in the galaxy with the exception of some far-off trade boarder dispute.


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Old Post Jun 2nd, 2016 03:51 PM
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well it doesn't have to be a half-hour lecture. ANH only took about 15 seconds to explain what a Jedi was. How difficult could it have been to define a Sith?


Fair enough. I'd sure have liked to know what they wanted revenge for. The relationship between the two is never very clear. Only: one is good (sort of... the Jedi don't come off very weel in the PT) and the other is just bad.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2016 07:06 AM
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Darth Luminous
kusemono

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Kashyyyk Shadowlands


 

quote: (post)
it is you providing what I feel is unnecessary complication, likely from other sources.


What other sources? It does not require any source other than the films to recognize that the Sith and the dark side are not the same thing ( just as, more generally, Force-users and the Force are not the same thing ), and thus eliminating one does not eliminate the other. This seems sufficiently obvious. Calling it "unnecessary complication" is about as accurate as calling all light side and no dark side "balance".

quote: (post)
but that doesn't change that the overall theme of Star Wars is the triumph of hood over evil, hence the Light Side over the Dark.


Yet you appear to misconstrue this. The "triumph" of good over evil in this context is not the complete elimination of evil or the capacity for evil, but evil being put back in its place, removed from a place of primacy or dominance. The same is true for the dark side. What we witness on screen is the defeat of the story's antagonists, certain specific evil beings and groups, as opposed to the entire aggregate of evil beings in the universe ( an unlikely goal in any event ).

quote: (post)
'Light Side' is his embodiment of balance and the dark side of that which tries to stop it. At least, that has always been my understanding of what he said and remains so to this day. If you are taking something different from it, again, fair enough. Regardless, that is the basis of the idea that Balance, within Star Wars, means all Light Side.


Some things he said about balance:

"He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." ( The Making of Episode I )

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I - and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter - is the balance between good and evil." ( The Making of Episode I )

So it seems that in Lucas' own words the overriding philosophy of the SW movies is, in fact, a balance between good and evil. It soon becomes evident that the balance of the Force is between the light side and the dark side, making a claim such as "balance = light" nonsensical on its face.

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance." ( "Flaws in a Good Heart" )

Here we are told that evil taking over, assuming a position of dominance, is what pushes the Force out of balance, as opposed to evil pushing the Force out of balance by merely existing. Thus we see that - by the same token - evil existing at a comparable level with good, while not being dominant or taking over, would not push the Force out of balance.

"The core of the Force, I mean you got the dark side and the light side. One is selfless, one is selfish. And you want to keep them in balance." ( "George Lucas on the Force 2010" )

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. And we all have those two sides of us, and we have to make sure those two sides of us are in balance." ( "The Mythology of Star Wars" )

So we see that, in his mind at least, balance involves both light side and dark side, which is coincidentally the same result we might have arrived at if we had consulted that wascally dictionary!


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2016 03:20 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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Lucas also said this:

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2016 07:06 AM
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Grand-Moff-Gav
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Lucas also said this:

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."


I've just read that a 'leaked script' suggests Luke tells Rey that Anakin was never the chosen one but that she may be... I'm not sure I put much credence in it but it came after reading an interview Lucas gave before the release of FA where he said Disney abandoned his idea that Star Wars was the story of 'Grandfathers, Sons and Grandsons' and took things in a totally different direction, which might suggest they are prepared to retcon the whole thing...

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2016 09:13 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Err ..???


what about that statement doesn't make sense to you?

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2016 04:27 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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Location: JP's bed

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I've just read that a 'leaked script' suggests Luke tells Rey that Anakin was never the chosen one but that she may be... I'm not sure I put much credence in it but it came after reading an interview Lucas gave before the release of FA where he said Disney abandoned his idea that Star Wars was the story of 'Grandfathers, Sons and Grandsons' and took things in a totally different direction, which might suggest they are prepared to retcon the whole thing...


Personally, I always liked the idea that Anakin was not really the chosen one... After all, Luke did all the hard work in destroying the Sith. Vader just gave the last nudge. But Luke was tempted and didn't give in to the Dark Side, Anakin did.

So Luke always felt more like a chosen one than Anakin (although I never liked that whole concept of a chosen one in SW). So maybe they're doing that idea with Rey. I guess it all depends a little on who Snoke is.

Plus... this may all hark back to the original set up of the SW franchise. At the time ESB was made, Luke was not to take out both Vader and Palpy in one movie (i.e. ROTJ). He was to defeat Vader as a conclusion of this trilogy. The second trilogy was Luke trying to find the 'another' Yoda was talking about : not Leia, but a sister that lived somewhere hidden. And together they would defeat Palpy at the end of the second trilogy. It might just be that with a little detour and some changes, they're reviving the original plot line.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2016 08:29 AM
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Darth Luminous
kusemono

Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Lucas also said this:

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."


...Which is, presumably, misunderstood to mean "all evil in the universe", despite the fact that the word "all" was not used? The problem is that such an overly literal interpretation makes no sense at all and conflicts with everything else that Lucas has said on the topic. Which is more reasonable: to assume that "evil in the universe" refers specifically to the evil of the Sith ( and the concomitant rule of the Empire ), or to the aggregate sum total of evil everywhere? Which alternative really lines up with what we saw happen in the film?

We see nothing in ROTJ to make us believe that the death of Palpatine somehow leaves us with a universe completely empty of evil ( or worse, with the very capacity for sapient evil stripped away ) as though Palpatine is literally Satan in a Christian sense. The old post-ROTJ EU, for example, depicted no such thing, nor does Disney's sequel trilogy. And really, who would have expected it to? We know that Lucas had his own ideas for possible sequels. If these were meant to take place in a universe without evil, what would have been the point? What kind of conflict would have driven the story? In the words of ghost Ben from Heir to the Empire, "The Emperor is gone, but the dark side is still powerful."

ROTJ provides a cinematic "happy ending" and a win for its protagonists, but the galaxy we're left with by the end of the film is still inevitably full of various sinister, nefarious characters all over the place. The remaining Imperials are only one example out of many. It's a big universe and there would still be a lot of evil.

Lucas has said that the Force is pushed out of balance as evil takes over. Surely there are more possibilities at hand than would be provided by a false dichotomy of evil either being in a dominant position or not existing at all. There is a middle ground. I realize that people are uncomfortable with a 50%/50% breakdown but the point is that 100%/0% ( or 0%/100% ) is entirely unreasonable.

"Without darkness there can be no light." - fortune cookie, "The Disappeared Part 1", The Clone Wars


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2016 03:29 PM
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queeq
Chaos

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It's a fairy tale. In case of SW: evil=Palpy/Sith.

People tend to overthink it and do not realise SW is simple.


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Old Post Sep 26th, 2016 10:09 AM
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Bashar Teg
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NO, IT'S A HISTORICAL DOCUMENTARY!!!


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Old Post Sep 30th, 2016 05:59 PM
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Lord Lucien
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It's um, and allegory for um, like, the dangers of um, moral absolutism, and stuff.


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Old Post Sep 30th, 2016 06:35 PM
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queeq
Chaos

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Um um...


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Old Post Oct 2nd, 2016 02:51 PM
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