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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode IV, V & VI » Do we overlook the OT's flaws?


Do we overlook the OT's flaws?
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Skybreaker
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Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

The Original Star Wars Saga is my all-time favorite trilogy.

That being said, I've been watching Red Letter Media's famously hilarious reviews of the Prequels, where he painfully dissects and ridicules every plot hole and narrative error Lucas makes in the new movies, and I wonder, I'm pretty sure I could do exactly the same thing with the Originals.

Like, there was some truly horrible acting in the OT, head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes that we all love to bag on the PT for. It's like the OT gets a pass on its nostalgia factor or something.

Amirite?

Old Post Oct 9th, 2014 08:36 AM
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steverules_2
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Cheesy special effects? If they'd had CGI back then they'd have used it, the re-releases being prime examples


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Old Post Oct 9th, 2014 12:26 PM
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queeq
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Cheesy SFX??? They were state of the art at the time. There would be no CGI because of these effects.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2014 02:43 PM
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The_Tempest
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Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

Yep. The OT is pretty much sacrosanct relative to the PT in the eyes of the interwebz. The rabid defense that orbits Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and prompts those losers to shut down Rotten Tomatoes with vindictive death threats and nerd!rage of an unprecedented because someone dared to give TKDR less than a perfect review had its genesis with the OT.

I watched and loved the RLM videos. Found them by and large hilarious and many of their criticisms valid. But PT bashing has become its own phenomenon and much of the vitriol exists because it's "cool" to hate it. Consequently, the OT is often considered to be a demonstration of flawless film-making.

For me personally? There's a lot to like and dislike about both trilogies. My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2014 03:25 PM
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Darth Thor
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Yep the way the PT is dissected down to criticise ,it would be hard not to find faults. The OT is given a few ride of such treatment. As are other franchises.

I personally love the OT and the PT and due to that I pretty much just give their faults a free pass. But then I'm not a critic, so I can just enjoy a film without everything being perfect.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2014 11:02 PM
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queeq
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I dunno... that is kind of a black and white attitude.

Personally I don't bash the PT because of the bashing. Of course, the OT has its faults. Yes, it has cheesy acting, yes, it has some bad scenes. But in essence the OT, especially ANH en ESB, work where they should work. The basic story premise works out (it starts with a simple fairy tale about rescuing a princess), the characters make sense, their motivations are shown in their actions, the OT had a documentary style unique to the genre, it had a unique vision on design (the 'used future' principle)... etc. etc. A lot of it is good and essentially right. And... it was made with non-existent technology and with huge financial restrictions. From a historic point of view that is rather relevant. Oh and, yes it was a phenomenal success, it changed the entire landscape of movie making, American iconology etc. etc... just details.

Now... the PT. The basic story premise does NOT work, the characters are not well thought through, motivations are dodgy and often unclear, it tries te explain a lot in many lengthy dialogue scenes, crucial scenes like falling in love with Padme and the fall to the Dark Side are horrible... And there were NO restrictions at all in technology or money.

No movie is perfect and every movie can be taken apart. But if it works at its core, then I can forgive many faults. To me, the entire PT does not work at its core. And what the RLM reviews do is show WHY... that's why they pick on large topics and little topics. The PT has trouble to convince on many levels. And that can easily be debated, discussed and argued (without nerd rage and if so it should not be considered as nerd rage, which is also a condemnation without considering the arguments).

It comes down to stuff like: if Hayden had been a better actor could he have made his cheesy lines work? Or is the material so bad, you need a Marlon Brando to make it work? So it's not the individual cheesy scenes, or individual faults.... To me the PT is faulty at its storytelling heart and in some ways at its cinematographical heart (the dull blocking of the many conversation scenes for instance). Picking on details is just finding examples to make that point stick.


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Old Post Oct 12th, 2014 08:55 AM
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JediRobin23
Somewhat Liberal

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There is nothing wrong with the ot. Just the blueray version. Case closed.

The pt just had super high expectations that didn't deliver.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2014 06:03 PM
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Skybreaker
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quote: (post)

For me personally? There's a lot to like and dislike about both trilogies. My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.


...this is actually the best comparison of the two trilogies I've ever read.

If the prequels have anything over the originals, it's that the concept of the decay and fall of the Jedi and the Republic is a far more interesting and nuanced one than that of some ragtag rebels trying to blow up a big battle station and a random guy in a black suit.

Old Post Oct 13th, 2014 02:25 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JediRobin23
There is nothing wrong with the ot. Just the blueray version. Case closed.



Really? You can't find even a single fault, not even in the Death Star's 1 lame ass weakness?

Weaknesses can certainly be found in the OT if picked on.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Skybreaker
...this is actually the best comparison of the two trilogies I've ever read.

If the prequels have anything over the originals, it's that the concept of the decay and fall of the Jedi and the Republic is a far more interesting and nuanced one than that of some ragtag rebels trying to blow up a big battle station and a random guy in a black suit.



Agree with everything except for "a random guy in a black suit."

That random guy in the black suit was one of the most Legendary Villains to ever come in film, if not The Most Legendary.

Old Post Oct 13th, 2014 11:51 AM
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JediRobin23
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? You can't find even a single fault, not even in the Death Star's 1 lame ass weakness?

Weaknesses can certainly be found in the OT if picked on


Yep. Don't pick on them as there were great movies when first seen them. After watching them a hundred times then may tend too. However, wouldn't change a thing...

Old Post Oct 14th, 2014 12:46 AM
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queeq
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
My personal summation is that the OT told a less compelling story in a much better way whereas the PT told a much more compelling story in a worse way.


This is true I think... and it basically says the OT is a better movie. I don't care what wonderfully complex story you have to tell, if you tell it badly it sucks. But if you have a simple story and you tell it in a great way, it rules.

Or in other words: if you have a wonderfully complex or compelling story to tell, make sure you tell it well. Otherwise it will fall flat on its face. And the PT did just that.


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Old Post Oct 14th, 2014 07:58 AM
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JediRobin23
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Just blame lucas. Like everyone else.....

Old Post Oct 15th, 2014 05:20 AM
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queeq
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Well, yes, in a way that's true. He is to blame for making SW an worldwide phenomenon, upscaling the B-movie genre into the A-movie genre, enriching our childhoods with wonderful movies like SW and Indiana Jones...

And yes, he is also to blame for making the PT into what it was. He was all powerful by then. Can't hide behind others, technological limitation en lack of finance for that one.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2014 05:19 PM
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Lord Lucien
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I love the OT to death, but after... 30 or so viewings each, the tendencies and quirks in dialogue, delivery, camerawork, special effects and so on really pop out. The flaws are evident.

But flaws aside, the OT is still entertaining and able to convey its story, plot and characters to the audience in a relatable, human, emotional manner. The Prequels are an emotional, tonal clusterf*ck. Plot holes, conveniences, dated SFX, etc. are minor annoyances and can even make for some endearing scenes and moments. But soullessness and joylessness are something else entirely, and those are things the PT has in infinite excess (that and TPMs toddler humor--"Icky icky pooh" and "Pee-you-sa!").

When I'm completely unable to like anyone in the entire trilogy or care about anything they're doing, the movie has done something wrong. The OT has whiny Luke, cutesy Ewoks, exploitative metal bikinis, plot inconsistencies, less-than-cerebral dialogue, and Harrison Ford's "acting" in the Falcon's cockpit in ANH, but it still managed to make me enjoy what was happening and like the players involved. I can't say the same for anyone in the PT, save perhaps RotS Palpatine. He was the one character who actually seemed to convey believable emotion and humanity. The most evil character ironically felt the most human and relatable because every other character felt like soulless B-movie robots. That's not bad acting, that's a bad movie. Three of them.


Have any of you ever seen the later 90s comedy Almost Heroes, with Matthew Perry and Chris Farley in one of his last roles? By any objective measure, it's pretty bad. It sucks. Farley was a comedic giant and the movie still blew. But it, and plenty of other bad movies that aren't trying to be bad, still manage to convey more humanity and a greater emotional range than anything in the Prequels. By MILES. Those movies are emotionally f*cked, at best. Dead at worst. That's why they suck. It's not the

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Skybreaker
truly horrible acting... head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes...


It's the complete lack of anything resembling human emotion or relatablility. I have to watch The Room to find characters so emotionally lacking and unbelievable as the Prequels.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 09:20 AM
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Kickballjedi
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Registered: Apr 2013
Location: United States


 

Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

In the end, we have to. I tend to focus on the important points in the story that may be relevant to future episodes and move on.

Episode 1
Medichlorians.
1 Master 1 apprentice Sith.
Anakin is a good pilot
Anakin had no father
Main characters

Episode 2
Anakin falls in love with Padme
Somebody plotted to start the Clone Wars 10years ago.
Only "cloners" can make the amazing dart that killed Zam.
Boba Fett watched his father beheaded by a Jedi.
Yoda can use a light saber

Episode 3
Anakin is cocky and evil
Palpatine planned out the Clone Wars and killing the Jedi 10 years earlier.
Obiwan kicks Grievous' and Anakin's ass.
Yoda has been contacted by QGJ who can become a force ghost.
Wookiees all have the ability to do the tarzan yell.
Having lost everybody close to him, Anakin becomes DV.

There, now I am ready for the new trilogy.


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queeq
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Good for you.


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Old Post Jan 16th, 2015 07:33 AM
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LukeStarkiller
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Re: Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Skybreaker
The Original Star Wars Saga is my all-time favorite trilogy.

That being said, I've been watching Red Letter Media's famously hilarious reviews of the Prequels, where he painfully dissects and ridicules every plot hole and narrative error Lucas makes in the new movies, and I wonder, I'm pretty sure I could do exactly the same thing with the Originals.

Like, there was some truly horrible acting in the OT, head scratching plot holes, cheesy special effects, unexplained and underdeveloped plot points, underutilized characters, deus ex machinas and narrative mistakes that we all love to bag on the PT for. It's like the OT gets a pass on its nostalgia factor or something.

Amirite?


Rurite? Yeah totally, at least in my book.
I think you nailed it when you said that the OT gets a pass that the PT doesn't.

For people like me who are old enough to have seen Star Wars in a cinema way back in 1977, then of course nostalgia plays a huge role. But every time I rewatch ANH as an adult the more disillusioned I become. The faults become clearer and clearer with every rewatch. The same goes for every Star Wars film, but I totally agree that it's "accepted wisdom" among critically unthinking fanboys/gangirls that the OT is great and the PT isn't. I don't see how anyone can logically argue this position.

With some fans, even when you point out the faults, plot holes, illogicalities, bad acting, etc, etc, in the OT they generally won't accept what you're saying and accuse you of blasphemy for daring to hold an opinion they don't share. It's almost as if they're putting their fingers in their ears and going "Blah, blah, blah, not listening." This is willful ignorance and you can't reason with such people.

Old Post Oct 30th, 2016 09:03 PM
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LukeStarkiller
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Re: Re: Do we overlook the OT's flaws?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by LukeStarkiller
Rurite? Yeah totally, at least in my book.
I think you nailed it when you said that the OT gets a pass that the PT doesn't.

For people like me who are old enough to have seen Star Wars in a cinema way back in 1977, then of course nostalgia plays a huge role. But every time I rewatch ANH as an adult the more disillusioned I become. The faults become clearer and clearer with every rewatch. The same goes for every Star Wars film, but I totally agree that it's "accepted wisdom" among critically unthinking fanboys/gangirls that the OT is great and the PT isn't. I don't see how anyone can logically argue this position.

With some fans, even when you point out the faults, plot holes, illogicalities, bad acting, etc, etc, in the OT they generally won't accept what you're saying and accuse you of blasphemy for daring to hold an opinion they don't share. It's almost as if they're putting their fingers in their ears and going "Blah, blah, blah, not listening." This is willful ignorance and you can't reason with such people.


Also as a newbie I can't post links, but check out "Why do Star Wars Fans hate Star Wars?" on onesixthwarriors dot com

Old Post Oct 30th, 2016 09:26 PM
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Lord Lucien
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I really thought this subforum was dead.



Not yet. Just keeps twitching.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:11 PM
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quanchi112
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Most do I don't.


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