Revan didn't unbalance it in either direction, hence no diminishing of either side. And the Force did seem to act to ensure his downfall. It's not like it had time to birth a Chosen One and wait for it to grow up and defeat Revan.
And yet Sidious's influence on the balance of the Force is consistently distinguished from disturbances in the Force, which are a dime a dozen in the lore and vary only in relative magnitude.
You've proven that Revan is the cause of a potent disturbance in the Force, which no one disputes. That's not the same as what Sidious did.
Obi-Wan told Anakin to use the power of the planet, he did so and then dominated both of them, the Father claimed that what he did proved he was the Chosen One.
Go figure I guess.
Evidently he was able to harness more powerful than the Son and Daughter could, which makes him better in my books.
I'm saying that if they did.
And they don't need to. Funnily enough most beings couldn't even dream of destroying the galaxy, even with infinite time to do it in.
Nah, they simply could not. If you have proof to the contrary I'm all ears.
I generally just troll around here. And mostly on ComicVine, actually. People are either too sensitive, too dense, or rarely ever online/rarely ever disagree with me for me to actually have a proper debate.
ChaosTheory:
They exerted their will on it for months and in response the Force created Anakin Skywalker; Anakin, whose very existence is predicated on him thwarting Sidious and Plagueis’ machinations and bringing balance to the Force. To that end, his very existence is carrying out the Force’s will, and Vader lived to the age of 46. In that respect, the Force spent 46 years retaliating to Sidious and Plagueis with Midichlorians serving as it’s proxy army.
I don’t look at it in a numerical sense, but if I did… still looking like a pretty blatant retaliation on the Force’s part. Here, have this immensely powerful, immaculately concepted Force-God who will eventually kill you off.
The issue with this whole premise is Mortis, and what Anakin was capable of becoming at virtually any time should he end up tapping into his potential. He could have become a God of the Force who wasn’t restrained to a prison.
Fair enough; but I see it a different way. The Force has a will and a sense of balance. The Dark Side exists in it with equal measure to the Light. Plagueis came as close as anyone has to blotting The Light Side out, symbolically and literally. So, the Force in equal measure returned the gesture, by having it’s proxy destroy the Sith, thereby nearly blotting out the Dark Side - but not completely.
If the Force just decided to create an immensely powerful Chosen One with realised potential off the bat to merk them, or simply returned their Midichlorians to the source thereby killing them instantly, it would be upsetting it’s own sense of balance by acting hypocritically - by acting just like Plagueis, which is to act as judge, jury and executioner where life and death is concerned.
In other words, it’s besides the point, which is that Valk/Revan never came close to doing anything as profound.
Enjoy.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Fair point; the story is told from the perspectives of Plagueis and Sidious primarily. You will need to say more than that to refute my argument however. As for my purported double standard; I dismiss what they say because, yes, they have a limited perspective, which means they are only speaking from their own personal experience. They have no verifiable proof that what Revan did is on-par, or had similar ramifications, or that Revan was capable of replicating the feat. All you have, essentially, is the personal feelings of a few characters about how the Force “rolls and convulses”, the disturbance “exists everywhere and nowhere at once” and so on. They are literally just expressing how they feel about Revan’s presence in the Force, which to them is profound, but even the way they describe it is inferior to an actual domination of the Force. It’s not compelling evidence for your point that Revan could also challenge the Force to etheric war and succeed to the extent Plagueis and Sidious had.
The proof of Plagueis’ success is in the pudding, not from word of mouth. He did suffuse the galaxy with the Dark Side. He did establish control over Midichlorians. He did warrant the immaculate conception of the most Forceful being ever. I’m just telling you the story from his perspective, because that’s how we find out how he arrived at those feats. If we didn’t know the how, you might just say that he used technology or the life force of 8000 Sith Lords in a ritual, etc, and I wouldn’t be able to verify that these feats came from Plagueis’ own power and will. Alas, I can verify that, so onwards with the debate itself.
Ah, but other Jedi and Sith did feel this; even those who had not met Maul or Savage felt “something sinister rising” in the Force. It’s not a big deal relative to Plagueis.
And again, there’s a big difference between feeling, from your limited perspective, that a disturbance is coming from "everywhere and nowhere at once" (what a garbage piece of dialogue, for the record), and it actually having a ramification on the Force which persists beyond the death of the perpetrator. Can you prove that Lana and co. found Revan’s presence as relevant and all-encompassing after SOR? Probably not.
Ermaigerd, affects the thoughts of others! Ermaigerd, how about making someone feel nausea with your presence?
―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
You ought to be careful how you respond to that quote, for the record. I’m aware it’s not exactly unprecedented, but it is a trap.
Yeeeeah, okay. In other words, Revan’s Light Side wanted to give up, but his Dark Side didn’t. Proof Revan was “fully killed”? The “death” and “rebirth” of something or someone can pretty easily be metaphorical.
Seriously. How is this:
Pro-tip: they aren’t different. Besides, how do you even define death in this case? The heart stopping? And then to return beating seconds later, something regular human beings can accomplish? The organs and vital bodily functions giving way, beyond repair, thereby preventing the body from going on? It’s never been done. Even Plagueis, with control over Midichlorians, cells which first and foremost administer life into organisms, could not revive Venamis when his organs finally became too damaged to function. I think Revan had a scare, and you took it a little too seriously.
Side-note: The spirit splitting into two is seriously painful writing. So stupid.
Because, as I said, it didn’t even occur to Valkorion in his thousands-of-years long quest for immortality that the key was in controlling Midichlorians. Paints a pretty clear picture of how far behind he is.
It didn’t even occur to him that to possess unprecedented control over life itself, he would have to challenge the Force openly, dominate it, and unbalance it in order to perpetrate such a contradiction to nature as to prevent death, sustain immortality, and create new life miraculously. In other words, he isn’t as successful as Plagueis in fields relating to immortality, the Dark Side and control over the Force, and he didn’t have as lasting a ramification on the Force as to have Anakin Skywalker rise against him as a proxy champion.
It’s also a matter of the willpower thing. Plagueis’ whole quest for immortality was based on him having the willpower to make impossible feats possible; he could learn techniques he had no natural talent for, or which weren’t natural to begin with, with sheer determination. If Valkorion was made of the same stuff, he might have accomplished something similar, but with literally thousands of more years of time he failed to scratch the surface, indicating much lesser willpower. And because he has inferior willpower, he has an inferior ability to use the Force, as does Revan.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Okay, let me rephrase. “Anyone strong in the Force”, which is a game of semantics as far as debate is concerned, I interpreted to mean anyone who is considered Force sensitive. Everyone has Midichlorians, but being strong with the Force usually means being a Force user.
Revan’s disturbance in the Force just doesn’t fit the same description. It’s honestly more in line with Maul’s impending return - him without having taken any action yet - disturbing the Force so much that many Jedi, even those who haven’t met him, felt his coming as something “sinister”. A disturbance in the Force is pretty standard procedure in Star Wars.
A “tangible alteration”, a change that feels so real you can physically touch it, is obviously different. It’s hyperbole, you can’t physically touch the Dark Side, but the underlying meaning is that there has been a permanent, or to quote the book “irrevocable” shift in the Force, towards the Dark Side. Plagueis essentially bent nature, the Force, to his will, something that should be impossible.
And the ramifications of this is the Jedi for decades after feeling their senses clouded, and the Force retaliating by, against the laws of it’s own nature, conceiving a being purely of the Force. An unnatural abuse met with an equally unnatural countermeasure.
Lol. Revan disturbed a few Force users. Plagueis disturbed the Force itself. This is not rocket science.
Yes, I explained this before, and we’re almost on the same page about it. The Force didn’t literally, overtly counteract them by making their blood boil and their kidney’s explode, which is why they thought there was no counterforce. Again, that would make it hypocritical. Instead, it birthed a champion out of pure Force energy to enact it’s will, and restore balance. The only thing you aren’t grasping is that it’s no mean feat to provoke the Force into taking such extreme measures, measures it clearly found to be overkill for relative small fries such as Revan and Valkorion. Clearly, what Plagueis did was so profoundly unnatural and offensive to the Force that it had to take unprecedented defensive measures.
You continually criticise the meditation against the Force as being unnecessarily drawn out and fruitless, but you again miss the point of it. There’s a reason Plagueis “allowed Venamis to die” on the same day he had felt the Force yield. The Force had to first yield to them before it was possible to manipulate Midichlorians - such an act is unprecedented, because the Force is supposed to be in charge of life’s building blocks, not mortal Force users. It’s the Sith trying to play God, and these two found more success than any who came before them. That you think Revan accomplished something similar by “strolling around” is nothing more than a comical oversight on your part.
Quotes? Because I recall that the Dark Side shroud was only ever lifted when Sidious died in RotJ.
The Force disagrees with you, I guess? There’s no verifiable proof that Revan’s “death” was anything more than his heart skipping a beat for a “blink”, as he put it, or a metaphor for his rebirth; him shedding his limitations, as it were, by separating the Light Side of him. What Plagueis did is actual control over life, which takes unprecedented willpower to match the lack of precedent for the feat itself; he can remove Midichlorians from the host body, manipulate them to reverse death, or even create new Midichlorians. A frightening prospect, given that the more Midichlorians one has, the greater their control over the Force; if Plagueis could create them indefinitely, and add to the amount he had naturally - which he did - then the possibilities are basically endless. Good thing the Force stopped him, otherwise he may have become truly unstoppable.
Quote, please.
That’s the point of what Plagueis endeavoured to do, yes. With his willpower he could accomplish anything with the Force. Even the most heinous acts, like playing God and mastering life, death, immortality and the Force itself through Midichlorians. That’s why Luceno laid out the premise with him mentioning that even one without a natural talent or predisposition for something can accomplish it with hard work.
The difference between him and Revan is that his willpower was far greater, thus he got far further in what he was able to accomplish. He matched his willpower against the Force and took home a W. Revan doesn’t compare.
It’s not really rocket science, Ant. Just like Force Maelstrom is a step up from Lightning, Plagueis continually stepped up his game. He notices this, and muses on it, and we can verify his thoughts with the results.
All it means is that his superiority over Revan and Valkorion is layered.
Not that it matters, because it’s ultimately the Force that created Anakin, not Plagueis, but quote? It’s after the meditation, bringing Venamis back to life, and achieving functional immortality that Plagueis attempts to create a Forceful being of his own, and then he senses the Force “flee”. Then, conveniently, he muses over what ramifications this last act could have had, and Luceno provides us with a metaphorical summary of all that will come to pass; the Light Side being blotted out (RotS), a fragment of light remaining (ANH) and the Light shining too intensely to see clearly (RotJ). In other words, the Force creates Anakin, and we have Star Wars.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Canon doesn’t adhere to Legends, which is where inconsistencies arise. Like I’ve said in other threads, every “legend” is as valid as the next, so when I debate them it’s on the basis of me assuming they are valid for the purpose of the debate. Obviously Maul saying that the Force only became out of balance during TCW is a contradiction, and he’s Canon, so he takes precedent, but then entering that kind of discussion means Revan doesn’t exist, so it doesn’t do much for you.
If you want to debate Plagueis without needing to have him retconned to succeed, let me know.
Also, again, I’m not relying on the limited narrator for my claims. I’m relying on… what… actually… happened. Which is that the Jedi were shrouded by the Dark Side, Plagueis mastered the Force at it’s most basic element, and in response Anakin, a potential deity, a walking plot device, an immaculate conception from the Force itself, was born as a champion to counteract Plagueis and Sidious. It just so happens that Plagueis is smart, and for the most part on the money. He and Sidious recognised what Anakin was, and so Sidious decided to murk Plagueis in his sleep and attempt to claim Anakin for his own, which if it had worked, would have been the ultimate victory over the Force.
1. An oversight if I’ve ever seen one.
2. It really isn’t; it’s a buck-standard disturbance in the Force.
3. The proof is in the pudding.
4. He was a product of the Force shitting itself at Plagueis and Sidious’ accomplishment, either way you spin it.
5. Because it never even occurred to him. He’s primitive in comparison. He didn’t even get as far as Tenebrous’ master.
6. And Plagueis went further than Revan and Valkorion, by a country mile.
And likewise I think you’re reflexively bitter that there’s even a slight possibility that Plagueis is a better-written, more powerful, successful and relevant character than Revan, who you are unhealthily obsessed with at times, primarily because Plagueis doesn’t have overt, easily digested feats like most SWTOR characters. Being considered inferior to such a character, therefore, is taken by you to be the gravest of insults against Revan, and therefore yourself, since you personally identify with Revan. A fictional character, if we weren’t clear before.
But that’s neither here nor there; we’re here to debate the topic, not diagnose rabies, are we not?
My ideas are my own; that other people share my insight is a bonus. If you can produce the quote, I’ll give you my verdict on it.
I do admire your growing scepticism of evidence in regards to perspective; now I am just waiting in bated breath for you to take a step further in the direction of impartiality and apply the same scepticism to everything Revan or a SWTOR character has said or experienced, instead of yeno, producing blunders like Malak > Nihilus, and Revan’s deranged assumption that he has conquered death. Otherwise, my young friend, I will have to laugh back at you, and how terrible a fate it would be for someone on the internet to do that to you. Ha ha, Ant. Ha ha.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
The existence and influence of the Sith shrine below the Jedi temple is a canon development that originated from unproduced Clone Wars storylines, was brought into canon by Jim Luceno's 2014 book Tarkin, and has been regurgitated in the Force & Destiny campaign guides, which are Legends books written from a canon perspective.
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
So what you're saying Temp, is that Force and Destiny is more of a composite source with some canon, some legends shit?
Like the new fact files that apparently are supposed to be canon, but have a retarded amount of legends shit that isn't actually canon?
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Pablo Hidalgo says F&D is Legends and has a metric shitton of Legends information in it. But the book also frames Legends as actual legends, with various disclaimers about their veracity..
The Fact Files are definitely Legends and treat it all as one unified mythology.
True, true. The idea that BioWare tried to roll with is that Revan's body is actually dead, and his "spirit" is just moving it around on. It's not really what I'd call impressive, though, because it doesn't make any sense.
Nov 3rd, 2016 11:14 AM
