>The opening crawl strongly indicates that a battle has just been won, expressly states that plans were stolen, and that Leia was given these plans to get them back to the Rebellion. So yes it happened yesterday, and no Vader hasn't been at it for a while.
>Vader pursued this ship with express knowledge that the plans were abroad. So yes he knows who has them and where they are, or at least did until they were smuggled away.
>No one doesn't think plans were stolen, they are not that incompetent. What they were disputing is whether the data is complete and/or dangerous. I guess since Scarif was blown to smithereens, they'd have no way of knowing exactly what information the rebels had acquired.
>Vader was not just happen to hanging around on Scarif, and decided to board some ships. He was dispatched there to intercept the rebels, I guess cause killing rebels is part of his job description, whom had just attacked one of the Empire's top facilities. Or something. And was evidently informed that the plans had been beamed to capital ship. This isn't explicitly stated granted, but the viewer is expected to be able to join the dots.
>There were not millions of people involved in the battle, but even if they had been, the Death Star is not something that Empire wanted to keep hush hush, but display brazenly and openly, like when they blew up Alderaan. Rather the impression intended to be given was that now the Death Star was complete, Tarkin did not give two f*cks about employing it in this manner.
I can understand why people may not enjoy the idea or execution of Rogue One. But this nitpicking is weird and silly.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 20th, 2017 at 03:12 PM
And also really fun. The end scene with Vader is now the only part of the movie I remember in any amount of detail; the rest of the film made so little of an impression otherwise. But if you're going to join your new film's last minutes to an older film's first minutes--get ready to be nitpicked, cause the two are tightly linked by time (and making everything rhyme).
I didn't say what WAS the case, I said it FELT like the case. ANH's opening was simple and straight forward, and subdued. But apparently, in the span of, what... a day? Vader went from violently butchering a hallway full of Rebel soldiers all by himself, to being the guy who only shows up after his grunts have done the dirty work-- just like his appearance on Hoth. I don't care about little plot inconsistencies, but when your shoehorned cameo changes the way a pre-established character conducts business and feels, you're doing something strange.
I like the Vader intimidates the hell out of people just by walking through a doorway and taking a look around. Then he orders to his underlings to do this, cover that up, etc., then ominously marches down a corridor to interrogate someone. He doesn't walk slowly toward his apparent goal, but lets it slip REALLY easily out of his grasp because he was too focused on looking f*cking badass for the fanboys by slicing people up and showing off his Force powers. The Vader of only a few hours from now (apparently) would disable their ship with his Star Destroyer, send his troops in to kill the Rebel nobodies, then walk by their bodies to deal with their leader.
But his cameo was so very vital to the movie, apparently. So f*ck it.
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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Mar 20th, 2017 at 04:06 PM
So you admit to not paying proper attention to the plot, figures.
Moving on, Vader is a Sith Lord with a lightsaber and built like a juggernaut, if you didn't get the impression that he was a man of action more than capable and willing to get his hands dirty when and if the need arises, I know some opticians I can recommend.
Was it blatant fan service? Yeah. Is it well within Vader's character to take matters into his own hands and f*ck shit up? Also yeah. Did the time sensitive situation combined with the critical nature of the target warrant his personal touch? Also yeah.
in R1 he goes out to slaughter a bunch of people on his own and fails miserably.
A day later perhaps, he intercepts Leia's ship over a remote planet, lets his grunts take the ship and then goes into diplomatic mode. It doesn't make sense! And then I mean, R1's Vader doesn't make sense. In the OT Vader didn't bother about the lowly dirty work, only about the crucial things. He's a bit too high on the food chain to fight his way through canon fodder.
Maybe by the time they caught up with Tantive IV Vader was grabbing himself one of those weird baths and he had no choice but to order his men to storm the ship and secure the plans. He then dries himself hurriedly and throws on his suit just in time to join his men as they take command of the ship. Yeah, this kind of works for me as an explanation.
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Like when? I can think of exactly 2 moments in the entire OT when Vader took matters into his hands alone. Both of them involved confronting Jedi he had a personal thing with--with Luke he still ordered his men to "make sure he finds his way in here." Even before he hopped in his TIE fighter, he let the nameless nobodies attack the Rebels first. And when he did go, he still went with an escort. He let the entire fleet and General Veers take on the Rebels base at Hoth. He let his TIE fighters chase down the Millennium Falcon, a ship he so desperately wanted to get his hands that on that he let chunks of fleet get hit by asteroids--and he STILL didn't do anything more than give orders or stand by a window. He didn't even go in to the Endor woods by himself to nab Luke, despite knowing for a fact he was there. He just let his own men escort him as a prisoner straight to his feet.
This is a boss beaver who gets the nameless and faceless nobodies under his command to do all the dirty work. It is "well within Vader's character" to simply stand around and look terrifying, and should one pop up, maybe saber duel a Jedi.
No. It didn't. If it was time sensitive he would have used everything at his disposal to stop those Rebels and get those plans PRONTO. Time sensitive moments are not when you take the opportunity to stand still at the end of a hallway, waiting in the shadows for the perfect moment when all those guys' are looking toward you so you can sinisterly light your saber and slowly, trudgingly, walk through them. Only to let your apparent goal escape before your eyes while you completely forget you have telekinesis. They made Vader's involvement in that scene pointless and forced, and at the same time also made him a total idiot. Had the filmmakers decided to give us the Vader from the OT (ANH especially), then the Death Star plans would have immeditaely been recovered.
Vader doesn't do really do jack shit in the OT, physically. He's a presence, a visual menace. Nothing more. When Rebels need killed and bases need stormed, he has people for that---Stormtroopers. But the filmmakers realized that too many people have played Vader in games, or seen him go all BADASS F*CKING MOTHERF*CKING AWESOME! in the comics or novels, so they figured "Meh, do that here too and those drooling monkeys will lap it up and never question it."
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Recall Vader: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the powers of the force"
Seems to me, Admiral Motti was basically giving Vader sh$t for failing to get the data plans "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion does not help you conjure up the stolen data tapes...."
Being 'tapes' not 'tape'
Anyway, In R1, was Vader really that concerned about retrieving the data tape(s)? Seems like it was just another day against the rebellion, and when he took matters into his own hand, guess he failed.....
Perhaps Vader underestimated the good side of the force while going after the rebels USB initially.....
Vader (or his storm troopers) didn't retrieve the data plans at any point in ANH. Vader alwalys adapts to a changing situation, such as when Tarkin took the chance of not needing them....
really, in ANH, if Tarkin had 5 more seconds at the end, the rebel base would have been done....
Last edited by JediRobin23 on Mar 21st, 2017 at 02:25 AM
Or you know... just blew up Yavin. The moon ain't surviving that kind of debris bombardment. Or exit hyperspace right next to the moon.
Or don't let Leia get away. That was an awful risk. It didn't work.
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Thanks queeq, but I'm well aware of his point. To which my response was the situation is different, and therefore demanded a different approach. I'll leave you to spot the difference in your own time.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Hint: it has something to do with the engines.
In the books, comics, games etc. that you mentioned for starters. What! Vader exists and does things outside of what we see in the movies?!
It's a novel concept I know but that's rather my point, simply because we don't see Vader do something on screen, does not mean he cannot, or that it isn't in his nature, rather, various pointers to which I previously referred imply Vader is a Man of Action when he needs to be. Something the "Expanded Universe" has and does continue to infer.
Not true, he didn't even know Luke was Force sensitive until he went out in pursuit of him, so there's your precedent. Moving on.
He employs pawns when they are useful and effective yeah, or when there is simply no need to do things himself. Retrieving the plans to the Empire's most prized weapon from a ship mere moments from making its get away is not a task you leave to the grunts, who would have been stuck shooting at the rebels for five minutes before getting trapped behind a blast door. Boarding and searching the same ship once safely immobilised when the rebels having known your coming would have had plenty of time to hide the plans wherever, is.
This is the Emperor's versatile enforcer. Who, when the needs arises... enforces.
Moreso when we consider Vader's origins as Anakin Skywalker, who frequently throws himself into the thick of things throughout the Clone Wars and rarely leaves his "grunts" to do anything. But wait, am I allowed to mention the prequels!?
Well now I think about Vader never did run in the OT did he? So I guess it would be out of character for him to do so. Right? Like 'member that time in ESB where he just strolls into the Falcon's hangar and watches the heroes get away? Instead of like, y'know, rushing in and grabbing it with his telekinesis? Come to think of it, why didn't Vader just use his telekinesis to grab Luke out of the air when he jumped off that platform on Bespin... or, or chuck Luke into the carbonite freezer and pin him there, or like, pull Ben onto his lightsaber?
I'm confused here Lucien, is there something about Vader's TK I'm missing? Something to do with the plot?
And on the topic of Vader melodramatically standing still in the shadows for the perfect moment to sinisterly reveal himself instead of getting on with that he was supposed to be doing... I 'member something like that from the OT too...
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Oh yes, because stormtroopers are much more competent and never job.
The games, the comics, the books, the tv series, all Canon mind you. So I guess the filmmakers were just being true to his character.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:19 AM
I'd say the performance itself made up for it, much like Vader rather clownishly watching Luke leap from freedom on Bespin did little to diminish the scene. In short: idrc.
That was a whole different scene. Clearly he LET Luke jump... his 'clownishness' if you will demonstrates his internal struggle between following the Dark Side and his love for his son. In R1 it demonstrates he is still as stupid as he was in the PT. Yet, a day later he's suddenly a cool and menacing figure.
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ESB: luke was not fleeing with info which could destroy the empire. vader's goal was to break luke's resolve and convince him to turn evil. he had all the time in the world to make that happen, and luke was not trying to escape. therefore, patience and intimidation tactics were wise in this context.
R1: vader's goal was to retrieve the death star plans with only seconds to spare, and he chose to instead have a wank in a dark corner when the clock was ticking. and before anyone brings up head games/intimidation tactics: there was no need for any of that, as vader was dealing with weaklings/non force adepts. in fact, he would have probably succeeded in getting those plans if he had just charged in from behind and surprised-attacked them. but no, they had to make vader 'badass', which made him seem more like a dumbass tbh.
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Last edited by Bashar Teg on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 02:30 PM
This is getting way too long. It's a decent but forgettable movie with a bad ending scene. And I don't know if you read my whole post before beginning to respond, but if not, please do. Not reading the whole thing first is how things get repeated ad nauseum and points overlooked.
I don't give a f*ck about the EU or the books or the games or whatever. I care about the movies.
Yes, true. And you're thinking of the wrong Luke moment. He went and dealt with Obi-Wan in ANH all by himself, and he went and dealt with Luke in ESB all by himself. Those were only solo sojourns. He flew after Luke in ANH with an escort, and after sending in a wave first. Which is a smart thing for a commander to do, no matter how skilled that commander is. Vader's not an immortal genie with infinite mana; he can be killed and he knows he needs people to cover him and watch his back.
And who failed spectacularly. But more on 'why' in a moment.
He did nothing of the sort in the PT except for that one retarded attempt to redeem his character 10 minutes before he executed a man in cold blood. And if you're talking about the CGI TV show, don't bother. I only care about the movies, and this movie dropped the Vader-ball.
You're not following, and your snark doesn't look good.
Vader doesn't have much TK in the OT. He chokes some people and slowly tosses some metal piping at Luke. That's it. The EU (e.g. The Force Unleashed) did the over-the-top superpower/Dragonball Z stuff. Vader wasn't a superpowered demi-god with phenomenal cosmic power. He was a prick in a robot suit that could strangle people with his mind or hit them with his laser sword. That's why he had goons and minions--he wasn't all powerful. This movie decided to start adding some of those video-game TK skills for the sake of having a cool scene. Which made his foregone failure to get said plans very confusing and made no sense. They could have had it make sense, by not having that scene at all.
Again, you're missing the point. Cornering, testing, corrupting, and capturing Luke was the whole point of every action Vader took in ESB. It was his singular end goal. Had Luke not escaped the carbonite pit, stood his own for so long in battle, and attempted suicide at the end, he would have had him. The confrontation between those two characters was the central point of the entire movie. It can be drawn out, and it should be for effect. That doing so also fit in with the plot is a sign of good storytelling and good filmmaking.
Reacquiring the USB stick that could destroy the Death Star was Vader's all-encompassing purpose for the entire one minute of screentime he had at the end of R1. But because the filmmakers wanted to draw that one out for the sake of appeasing unthinking or simple audience members, they made him an idiot who failed utterly in that purpose.
I get you want to like all these films for identical reasons, but the films aren't identical. Stop falling in to that trip where you think that somehow disproving... something for superficially similar reasons in the OT acquits Rogue One's flaws. It's no better than someone criticizing your ugly shoes and you responding "Well you're laces aren't tied, so that proves my shoes aren't ugly!" Vader did not need to be in the movie's ending, he served no purpose, and added nothing. But in forcing the scene to happen, the writers broke from what the character was immediately supposed to be like in just a few hours, and made him needlessly brutal---seriously, making him that violent (and sadistic--it's the only reason I can think of for why he did it all so slowly, which led to his own failure) added nothing worthwhile and only took away something good. It was a useless, terrible scene.
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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 07:32 PM
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I loved the scene at the end which reinforces the ineptitude of Vader. Fanboys were saying how awesome he was despite his failure against the weakest of opposition and the powers to reacquire the plans at any point.
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quan, why you gotta be a vader hater
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Mar 20th, 2017 03:09 PM
