That along with Maul being broken and lost while Kenobi is at w great place mentally. No, it doesn't and this only pertains to the time of their duel and where both fighters are at. Maul didn't progress whereas Kenobi did. Maul was broken and lost. He wasn't anywhere near at his best. I am just going by the creators words exactly. You're not because you're a biased dimwit with an axe to grind.
Maul without a doubt is superior to Kenobi in both of their primes. A broken, older, less practiced, frailer Maul is a lot weaker than a prime Maul but still great nonetheless.
I've already explained the differences and why it isn't comparable. Your inability to grasp or refute any points is probably due to the schooling you were subjected to being from a third world country.
The creator said he was killed because he was lost and broken. For ****s sake this isn't rocket science. Being lost and broken is far from your best you third worlder.
You do realize that Maul being 'broken and lost' is not a positive thing, right? You say it in a tone like it's okay. The fact that he's like that and that he hasn't progressed is really kind of pathetic, tbh.
Dude, you're so biased that you can't see how incredibly overwhelmed Maul was and how lame and pathetic was his last moment.
Funny how prior to this episode launching, you weren't saying Maul was any of those things, and were always boasting about how powerful and great he is.
No, you haven't. Provide proof. Why do you believe prime Maul > Rebels Kenobi? What evidence do you have?
The creator said he lost because he was ****ing weaker than Kenobi. Get over it.
Yes, I do realize it but it's a fact. I always embrace the facts. No, it's awesome because it proves he loves for this shit and is motivated by this with every fiber.
Maul was petty and selfish. I love those traits. He's a true Sith and I have and will always favor the bad guys over the good guys. I don't give a shit what you like or not.
I said after the season two finale he wasn't at his best. He's still powerful and amazing but past his prime. So what ? He's always been a big impact player and still remained so up until his death. Kenobi knew he was a threat and reacted. Maul was very cunning even despite being broken and consumed by his own selfishness.
In a better mental state, physically superior, younger, more practiced and he had the better of a prime aka younger Kenobi multiple times.
He lost due to his mental state. You're ignoring the reason he lost and inserting your own though while ignoring Filoni who explained the very reason. Shameful.
If you realize that, then you also must realize that saying 'he only lost to Kenobi because he was broken and lost' certainly does not make him look good or better, either.
You know who else has those traits? Pretty much every ****ing Sith ever. So nothing special there.
When did you say this? Please, refresh my memory.
I hope you realize that by saying this, you're pretty much accepting the fact that Kenobi is more powerful and more amazing than Maul, that he's even more of an impact player than Maul, and that Kenobi was even more cunning.
Yeah, so was Anakin vs. Kenobi in ROTS, yet he pushed him back for a big chunk of that duel. Physically superior? In case you didn't realize it, even Rebels Maul is physically superior to Rebels/ANH Kenobi. That didn't really have much relevance, now, did it?
More practiced in what way?
Yeah, like here:
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Or when he was beating Maul and Savage simultaneously:
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In fact, the only time when Maul had the upper hand against Kenobi was that time when Savage and him lured him into saving a lost village, attacked him at the same time, knocked him out unconsciously and continued to punch an exhausted Kenobi afterwards. Yeah, not like Kenobi was at his best after that, lol.
He lost in part due to his mental state. You want to use that as the absolute excuse that exempts Maul from any guilt or fault. He also lost because Kenobi was quite simply the superior combatant by a significant margin. Maybe you don't agree with me, but Filoni does, considering he's the one who said that. But of course, in regards to Filoni's words, you only take what makes Maul look good, because well, you're Quanchi.
The question is why is Kenobi so much better than Maul now when it didn't start off that way? And clearly wasn't that way in TCW either (even if you strongly believe Kenobi was better, they were clearly great fights in that time period).
Filoni doesn't hint at Kenobi just being naturally more powerful in the Force or a more skilled swordsman. He seems to have put all their fights (TCW and Rebels fights that is) down to either the level of focus in that particular fight, or the combatants general state of mind and being in that time period.
He said he believed Kenobi was too good not to win this fight in such a short-time manner. I think this goes beyond that. Filoni saying Kenobi has progressed while Maul hasn't etc, proves that at this point [Rebels] he's unquestionably above Maul. In the past, I believe, they were indeed roughly in the same level. These recent comments -- plus the way the fight went -- should put the debate to rest.
I never said it made him look good. It only furthers my position I always go with the facts. Thanks for proving I'm unbiased.
False. Vader was redeemed and he's the most famous Sith out there to the general public. People are free to make their own choices and Vader chose to be pulled back to the light for his son. Maul never left the dark. Boom.
I do hope you realize that all this means was Kenobi was in a great place mentally while Maul was in a terrible place mentally when they met up. Maul was at his worst. It's similar to Pippen beating Jordan today and acting as if that matters with regards to their physical primes decades ago. It doesn't.
So you admit pushing an opponent back isn't indicative of superiority without a clear victory. Point refuted.
His skills weren't well honed. He's still great but isn't actively dueling, is mentally in a bad place, and is physically a lot older. Kenobi didn't rely on his physical acumen to the same extent Maul did.
First gif is you basically ignoring Maul clearly winning the duel. He has Kenobi disarmed and hanging on to a ledge while completely at his mercy. Kenobi jumps up and catches him off guard not out of superior skill but due to the arrogance of maul. #contextmatters
2nd gif and 3rd gif. You basically showed me gifs of Kenobi kicking them brothers. Who cares ? If I post a gif of Maul kicking Palpatine by your standards I guess I can falsely claim Maul was winning. You're a moron and ignore context at every turn. Maul force pushed Kenobi out of the vicinity for a clear win. Kenobi was unable to get back to him while he tended to his injured brother.
Kenobi was not psyched out or at his worst by any stretch of the imagination. Maul took he and his master on in phantom menace. I guess 2 on 1 only matters when it happens to Kenobi. Quit being a hypocrite.
It was Filoni's words. Quit denying reality here. I embrace the facts you want to exaggerate or pretend Maul was at his best. He wasn't. Kenobi was better here in this duel not the prior ones where Maul is younger, more practiced, and in a better mental state.
Maul at his best is better than Kenobi at his best.
Kek, that wasn't even the point. You're arguing Maul is better than Kenobi overall, in his prime and especially as a character, but he's such a failure that by Rebels he's a broken, lost soul while Kenobi is at his mental and emotional prime. The fact that Kenobi progressed so much while Maul regressed proves who, in the end, was better overall. Does that hurt?
Lel, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said and off the point completely. I said being 'petty and selfish' are qualities Sith have in general, so it's really nothing special that Maul also has them. Vader being redeemed has nothing to do with that, as my point still stands, and prior to being redeemed he was indeed selfish and petty.
Lmao, worst comparison ever, especially when you consider Maul isn't actually in a bad shape at all physically in Rebels, while Kenobi clearly has degraded physically by this point, as seen in ANH. And as usual, you ignore the rest of my arguments. Maul was also in a bad place mentally in S2, when he fought on par with Ahsoka and was destroying the Inqs. It's pretty clear that although broken, he was still an extremely capable fighter by Rebels, yet he was still easily defeated.
Okay, two things to note here:
1. The point was that even whilst mentally hindered, Anakin was able to put up a hell of a fight, whereas Maul did not.
2. In this case, Obi-Wan didn't just 'push Maul back', he destroyed him in three strikes. So I don't see where the 'pushing back' comparison is actually viable or relevant here.
And what do you think Obi-Wan was doing in Tatooine? Honing his skills? Training in saber combat? Actively dueling against people? If you argue Maul's skills weren't honed because of those reasons, Kenobi's sure as hell weren't, either.
Quit acting like Maul was in shit form physically. He was clearly still in good shape, as proven by his fights in S2. Still acrobatic, still strong.
Funny how you're the one saying 'context matters' when in our previous debates I always pointed out how you blatantly ignored context. Ironic.
Also, I'm not at all ignoring context. You were arguing Maul got the better of Kenobi a lot of times in the past. This gif shows a Kenobi also getting the better of Maul. Padawan Kenobi, btw. Yeah, Maul beat Padawan Kenobi and had him hanging on to a ledge. Are you seriously going to use that fight to prove a point? Kenobi was miles away from reaching his prime.
I showed you gifs of Kenobi fighting off Maul and his brother simultaneously. It's not about the kicks. If you really can't see that, you're the one ignoring context, not me.
Also, Palpatine was toying around with the brothers, dude. He could've ended that fight the moment it began. So your comparison is absolutely useless.
Also, Maul Force pushed Kenobi away to stop the fight, because his brother was injured, lol. Not a clear win at all. Kenobi didn't go back to him because a goddamn pile of rocks fell in front of them and couldn't even reach them anymore. He had the upper hand in that fight practically every second. Did you even watch that episode?
Do you ****ing realize this is TPM Kenobi we're talking about? Padawan Kenobi? Yeah, Maul beat TPM Kenobi and Qui-Gon because he was indeed superior to both of them. Your point?
Actually, I don't see much difference between Rebels Maul and TCW or SoD Maul. He was, after all, fighting on par with an Ahsoka that managed to fight Vader well enough, which meant Ahsoka had progressed significantly since her TCW days. Do you have evidence that shows the difference in power and skill between Rebels Maul and TCW/SoD Maul?
Having someone in a prone position isn't the same as beating them. For me, Padawan Kenobi wins the duel with Darth Maul in TPM. Maul held his own against OB1 and QGJ, very impressively IMO, killing Qui-Gon but when it came right down to it he lacked the discipline that Kenobi had when he cut him in half.
__________________ Then lets head down into that cellar and carve ourselves a witch
Again you don't get the point. Maul was broken and lost so at this point he was worse off than Kenobi. He had no allies and was on his own for decades. This has nothing to do with his prime and Filoni already explained why. Maul at his best became a rival to Palpatine at the night of his power. He spared Kenobi's life. The guy rose above expectations and achieved his own legacy outside of Palpatine's plans. Amazing legacy.
That has to do with how both characters died. Maul died a true Sith embracing the philosophy as he died. Vader died rejecting the philosophy and once again being a despicable traitor to an empire which preserved his miserable life with a life support suit. We are talking about their deaths. If you want to compare their entire lives Maul was a Sith his ENTIRE LIFE. Vader was only a Sith for a few decades. Prior to he was a Jedi and he died a Jedi.
Maul is frailer and older. The voice actor confirmed it. He relied more on his physical prowess than Kenobi so this is worse for him than Kenobi. He was extremely capable I have never said otherwise but nowhere near his best. Quit ignoring the shit I agree with, Another reason why Maul can handle other great Jedi such as Tano due to her not having familiarity with him as Kenobi has had. This is another reason I have stated is why Kenobi won when he did. Kenobi knew the same tactic and he tried it early on hence why he lost in three moves.
1. Vader was in his physical prime. Vader also wasn't mentally broken and lost. He emerged as Vader embracing his fear ridden mentality. Vader never disarmed Kenobi. Ever. Weak. Kenobi spared his life.
2. Based off their previous history and Maul going back to said move while being broken and lost. I've already stated why this occurred. Quit ignoring the facts in pursuit of your petty anti Maul agenda. It's pathetic. You're pitiful and a disgraceful human being. Maybe it's that nasty water you drink in your third world country.
You didn't listen to Witwer's commentary which explains the obvious. Kenobi was still an active guard on duty with the most important task in the galaxy safeguarding Luke. Your ignorance and lack of comprehension is stunning. Kenobi isn't broken and lost. They aren't the same so quit reaching you hillbilly.
Maul wasn't at his best. I didn't say shit I said below his best. He was in good shape just not his best. You don't even realize I agree with you and continue to try to dodge my points. You're a weak debater.
What context did I ignore you despicable liar.
The gif shows a kick. That isn't getting the better out anyone that's just a kick. Maul kicked Sheev so based off your logic Maul got the better of him.
Kenobi was an apprentice as was Maul. Maul killed his master and disarmed Kenobi and had him at his mercy. Vader was never able to do so.,
Kenobi fought two and lost to a Bfr. Maul force pushed him out of their vicinity when his brother was injured. That's a win, loser. Maul fought Qui and Kenobi. He killed Qui and later disarmed Kenobi.
No, that's speculation. Maul fought on and wasn't easily defeated. Your silly opinion doesn't override facts. You're an idiot and a shit debater.
Bfr is a win. Maul wasn't injured at all and when his brother was injured he force pushed a caught off guard Kenobi. That's a win. Kenobi never got back at Maul despite his help because Maul is that damn good.
Kenobi was an apprentice as Maul was. Maul is great. Undeniable. I win.
This is because you're an idiot. I have explained why. Abc logic as well. Different fighters with different experiences, etc. Vader is hilariously overrated and doesn't have one legit win over any great opponent. He's shit.
SoD Maul's fight with Palpatine, his wins over Kenobi in Clone Wars, his stomping of Opress in clone wars, his win over Grievous, etc.
That's due to your own ignorance with Star Wars canon. It's on the shows and in the comics.
Yes, he was broken and lost and worse off than Kenobi. Glad you finally accept his failures.
Yeah, political rival.
This is all subjective, obviously, so you needn't bother replying to this particular part of my response, but you criticizing characters like Yoda, Vader and Sidious for being 'failures' is hilarious, when Maul was much more of a failure than any one of them in holistical terms.
Is your level of reading comprehension seriously that low? You said, and I quote: "Maul was petty and selfish. I love those traits.", to which I answered: "You know who else has those traits? Pretty much every ****ing Sith ever."
What has the way both character died have anything to do with this?
You're literally spatting bullshit that has absolutely nothing to do with the original point.
I'm talking about Vader and pretty much most other Sith being characterized as 'petty and selfish'. The way in which he died and his redemption are both irrelevant and completely separate from this. God.
He sure as hell didn't seem much frailer when he was fighting the Inqs and Ahsoka. He clearly still moves gracefully, shows he's still capable of performing acrobatics and is still quite fit. Stop it with this nonsense.
This is hilarious. On previous debates you dismissed Filoni's opinion, but now you're actually using quotes from the voice actor to prove your point? How far you've fallen, the hypocrisy is strong with you.
The voice freaking actor is not a canon authority, kiddo.
Evidence for this, please.
You're actually saying the sole reason why Maul was able to go blow-for-blow with Tano unlike with Kenobi is that they had no familiarity with one another? If that's your strongest argument and the only excuse you have for why Maul lost like that against Kenobi, I honestly pity you.
Familiarity can only take you so far, and it definitely does not nearly dictate who wins or who loses. Why else -- without taking into account familiarity -- do you think that whilst being broken and lost Maul was able to contend with Tano but not Kenobi? I'm genuinely curious, because you've avoided that subject every time I've brought it up.
Another? Which other reason that I haven't refuted have you listed?
So is this the only reason why Kenobi won? That it?
Again, don't mention Maul being 'broken and lost' for the 10th time, because I've refuted that already.
Stop ****ing using 'physical prime' as an excuse. It's established that Maul was not anywhere near being in a bad shape at all.
Are you serious? Vader was a ****ing mental and emotional wreck when fighting Kenobi. A monkey could notice that.
Oh, right. TPM Maul disarmed TPM Kenobi. What an incredible accomplishment, because TPM Kenobi = TCW/ROTS/Rebels Kenobi, right?
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Yeah, you've stated it and I've refuted it and you continue to ignore it or counter with shit like 'they knew each other's moves', kek.
Okay, then. Explain to me how exactly Obi-Wan honed his skills. Who did he duel against? In what ways could he have trained that Maul couldn't?
Being in safeguarding duty =/= training and honing your martial skills.
Below his best =/= bad physical shape, which is what you're making it sound like. Maul was in good physical shape in Rebels. Now ****ing move on.
Sure Quan. I'm the one who continually dodges your points, because they're so fantastic and irrefutable.
If you want to know, go check our previous debates because I'm not gonna spell it out for you tbh.
I'm continually astonished by you ignoring arguments over and over again. I shouldn't be, tbh. As I've told you several times: Sheev was ****ing toying around with Maul and Savage. So him being kicked is hardly as impressive as what Kenobi did.
If you watched the episode, you know Kenobi was holding off both of them simultaneously. Either accept it or move on.
You're seriously so desperate that you're going for this? Wow.
Yeah, gloat around like an idiot about how great Maul is for disarming Padawan Kenobi.
You quite specifically said Maul has got the better of Kenobi a lot of times in the past. I simply posted a gif in which Kenobi is portrayed getting the better of Maul, even as a Padawan. Sure, it was due to Maul's arrogance, we all know that. But answer my question, because this is the actual point: Did kenobi get the better of Maul?
Sidious was capable of Force stomping both brothers with ease at any given moment. If you have the balls to deny this, damn, you're more stupid than I thought. Also, so salty.
That's called stopping the fight in order to save your injured brother. You're so incredibly biased it's ridiculous at times. Force pushing someone away doesn't equate to a win.
Wow man, you really blow my mind away with your impeccable arguments.
You haven't explained shit other than your usual blabbering, lol.
While on a debate, when you claim something you have to provide evidence. I'm waiting.
I have always maintained this you are the one not grasping what I've stated from the beginning.
He amassed enough power to become his rival. That's immensely impressive considering the power Sidious had amassed at that point. Also your take on rival is arguable but it doesn't undermine my point. Maul was a real challenge for Sidious to address. Maul is amazing.
Maul had less help or resources out of any them. That's what makes him amazing that he even survived the Kenobi incident of PM. Vader failed despite the backing of a galactic empire and being a benefactor of Sheev's machinations. He wasn't bright enough to locate Kenobi on his own he also came to him. Maul made him come out of hiding. Yoda let the Jedi council down despite its hold and numbers because he was a huge failure. He even had a shot against Palp and failed against a peer despite knowing how this was his only chance to save the galaxy from a tyrant. Sidious had everything under control and put himself at risk to turn a Jedi to his dark side when it only put him at risk. Sad.
Vader wasn't petty and selfish at the point of his death. We are talking about death scenes and what led to it. Vader was selfless and sacrificed himself to save his son. Maul died embracing the Sith philosophy while Vader embraced the Jedi manner before death. You're a clown.
Maul died being petty and selfish so that's why it's relevant while Vader died being selfless. You can't even make sense despite me holding your filthy third world hand. Points of death. Maul died a Sith Vader died as a Jedi and Anakin. For ****s sake.
He is frailer and older. His skillset is still adequate enough to hold these tards off. Just because Yoda can flip when he uses the force doesn't make him not a frail, old bastard who needs a cane outside the force. You don't grasp what simple words mean or how the force works. Maul is still great just not as great. My point remains firm whereas yours changes from post to post.
Filoni's opinion over scenes from canon he has worked on is relevant but his opinion on hypothetical matchups isn't. My stance has remained the same. Your own ignorant opinion remains the same.
He worked on this and knows more than you do so of course I'm going to cite the actor to correct your ignorance, you don't comprehend anything and I'll destroy your ignorance, third worlder.
Watch his phantom menace fight and see his physical skills and compare his posture and movement outside of the force in rebels. Not hard to grasp. Common sense 101.
I am saying his skills are up to the task for any elite but the reason he died against Kenobi was he was familiar with the attack he used decades before and countered. Kenobi was familiar with him intimately and he was broken hence why he lost.
He countered the same attack he used decades ago hence why it ended on the third strike. You're someone who has no common sense. If the golden state warriors crush the cavs in game one but later go on to lose a seven game series that doesn't mean in game one the Warriors were on another level just on that day at that time the Warriors prevailed. Just the same as it is with Maul who was broken and lost who also was defeated by using the same tactic Kenobi was familiar with and countered.
You have refuted nothing just restated your opinions.
I've restarted my case a hundred times for your tiny brain to comprehend but to no avail.
Filoni explained it as the reason. Facts don't change my trollish friend.
I didn't say Maul was in bad shape I said he wasn't in his best shape, mindset, and older.
Vader was angry and empowered by emotions which is what the Sith rely on. Are you a moron ? Rhetorical.
Maul defeated clone wars Kenobi and made him flee as well. Maul killed Qui as well but your Maul hate is pretty apparent at this point.