Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
No, there isn't. There is only unsupported conjecture based off silly statements while ignoring Windu disarming him in their own duel. Lucas clearly stated Windu overpowered him not that Sidious controlled the events of their duel. You fanboys make up claims you cannot support due to reshape reality to match up to your fanboyism reality.
Windu disarmed him and had him at his mercy. Sidious lost the duel. Facts>>your baseless conjecture. Lucas also confirmed Windu overpowered him.
I agree but it's worse for the guy who is the mastermind rather than the Sith driven warrior out for blood.
Yoda was outplayed. It wasn't the first time nor was it the last. The Jedi were content and moronic hence why they fell to the Sith.
He is better than Yoda because he's more cunning. Skill wise I'd favor Yoda slightly due to his movement. I agree Sheev was superior in their duel. Facts matter. Windu delivered when it mattered but Yoda failed miserably.
Both were apprentices. The Sith only had a few compared to the legions of Jedi at the time but both weren't experienced or powerful enough to be a master yet. Maul also killed his master thus proving his skill level was superior to Kenobi's master. Kenobi being lucky Maul didn't press his advantage doesn't suddenly make him skill wise greater than Qui because of what occurred. Common sense, kiddo.
I hear excuses. Qui had a two on one advantage so quit acting as if Maul didn't have to expend energy against the both of them. So you agree Maul is a badass, good. He'd beat Dooku.
Screaming the words you will die while trying to zap him with force lightning proves it. Thanks. There is no evidence he was holding back or purposely trying to spare him. None.
He did need Anakin but at no point did he plan on those events taking place. He laid the seeds of doubt and used this situation to his advantage. He can't control the events of reality but he can manipulate them as they unfold in the best manner possible.
So as I said you can be less powerful and use powers to subdue someone more powerful at the right time. I just proved it. Sidious used his powers at the right time when the opening was there. It's the same with any fight you fanboy. Anyone can use their powers to strike an unsuspecting or vulnerable opponent. Anger doesn't make savage more powerful than Dooku in the force.
No, it doesn't. That means he can if he's vulnerable or not ready for the attack. Dooku isn't above Maul. Ridiculous.
Kenobi was far less in force power than Dooku but uses his saber in AOTC to negate the force powers. Dooku uses the proper opening in rots to force choke and slam him out. That doesn't mean he can do this whenever he wants. You have to be ten or so to believe such horseshit. Think for yourself you blabbering fanboy.
Sidious can force choke him when his defenses are down aka in clone wars. He did this to Dooku just as Yoda can force push Sidious when he's vulnerable bit not at any point. Common sense.
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
Facts matter more than who is more superior on the stat sheet. The Giants won just as Windu won in the film. Fanboys have a hard time dealing with Windu's dominance over Sheev.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
That's where you're wrong kiddo. Lucas initially had it so that Mace overpowered Sheev, but later decided to make it either way, so that it was up to the viewer to decide.
This is 100% absolute cannot be contested canon since it comes from Lucas himself. Adding in comments made by Nick Gillard about Sheev's power level indicates that although Lucas made it up to the viewer, the facts more likely than not support Sheev controlling the fight. Remember, all of Gillard's comments are supported by Lucas, since he created the fights and sword styles and had to pass everything by Lucas before he was allowed to say/do. Therefore making his opinion supported by Lucas.
For example, Gillard says Sheev, Yoda and Anakin are 9's, whereas Mace is an 8 bordering 9. This places Sheev above Mace as a swordsman firstly. He also says Sheev is capable of defeating even the greatest Jedi in lightsaber combat, that he is a master of every weapon and every form, and that he draws you in to ultimately defeat you.
All of these statements indicate that Sheev is a better swordsman and that he draws people in by pretending to fight worse than them. Not only that but Lucas changed his mind about Mace legitimately overpowering Sheev, saying it's open for debate, and every statement by Gillard only reinforces Sheev's side of the argument, not Mace's. This is not fanyboyism or conjecture, this is fact.
You may still believe that Mace did win legit, since Lucas said it's open for your opinion, but using other canon statements it clearly technically falls to Sheev controlling the fight. To call Gillard's statements conjecture of fanyboyism either, if you are going to write that, is absurd.
As said above, Sheev lost on purpose. Deal with it.
Fair enough I guess. It's pointless to argue this anyway. Sheev fully believed Vader was completely turned, he was wrong. He got overconfident just like Maul did, though he didn't really make this mistake anywhere else in the movies. I just read Darth Plagueis and Maul again made the same mistake of underestimating his opponent, who wasn't even a jedi. Seems to be a recurring problem for him.
I feel like he got overpowered by Sheev rather than outplayed. Your statement regarding the Jedi however, is true and I agree completely.
He is more cunning, but that is an opinion of both of ours, nothing more. It is however, completely canon confirmed that Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. And again, the statements made by Gillard offer proof that Sheev was a superior duelist to Yoda.
I've already addressed Mace. He thought he delivered, but he really got played.
I never said Kenobi was more skilled than Maul?
I'll just quote what SunRazer said recently in the thread Qui-Gon vs Ventress:
Actually, two-vs-ones are literally never represented as a "combine the skills of the duo versus the singular" scenario. There's plenty of incidents where character X fights off both Y and Z simultaneously despite Y alone being an equal or near-equal to him. Dooku vs Obi-Wan/Anakin (especially in the junior novel) is a good example. Qui-Gon isn't a precise match for Maul but is pretty damn close barring his stamina deficiencies. Obi-Wan just wasn't a significant difference, especially with the unorthodoxy of Maul's saberstaff and Maul clouding their minds/blunting their use of the Force.
Hopefully that answers it better than I could. Prove he could beat Dooku?
Ah, so it was a massive coincidence that Anakin played out his part perfectly 100% in Sheev's favor? Hmm.
The evidence I talked about at the start proves it.
He obviously didn't plan everything out exactly, but he planned the basic premise of it, and manipulated everything as it happened.
Obviously I'm well aware of that, Kenobi only beat Maul because Maul got cocky and thought he'd already won.
You're saying that Sheev couldn't ragdoll Maul if he was prepared? Hmm, MAYBE, but even then Sheev can just wear Maul down until he could, it wouldn't be a problem.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: May 2007
Location: Best company on the planet
His commentary makes it clear Windu overpowered him. Fans created this alternate theory this is just conjecture and contrary to Lucas' own words. It must be a tough pill to swallow Windu beat him.
Lucas' own words and what happens on screen >>>>>conjecture you can't prove. Period.
Those are just his opinion not facts. The facts are Windu won. A power level is fine and dandy but he lost. Being more powerful doesn't mean you're unbeatable. We clearly see him beaten by a less powerful foe. Kudos to Windu. Palpatine is capable I didn't say he wasn't but he lost. Learn what words mean and don't try to twist them to alter facts. You're like a Donald trump trying to twist reality to suit your perception of it.
Provide the quote where Lucas changed his mind. He clearly stated he overpowered him. He did so. Commentary counts he doesn't just muse when they put something out there. Sheev could be better just as the patriots were superior to the Giants. When they played at the most pivotal point the Giants won just as Windu won when it mattered. That's a fact. Mir you can't prove Sheev threw the fight which makes no sense or has anything in the films indicating he purposely lost. You also ignore his words after being disarmed right in front of Anakin. You're a fanboy. I completely understand and despise you Sheevites. Thank heavens for Snoke and the new trilogy which will put the baddest bad guy out there to rest.
Lucas said he overpowered him and entertaining fans doesn't mean he changed his opinion. It's a smart business move to placate to the drooling fanboys who created alt facts to explain Sheev's loss.
He was overconfident against Yoda and then tried to flee from the fight. He cackled and acted like it was going to be easy to kill or defeat Yoda.
Maul didn't really grow but I enjoyed that aspect of him.
Sheev was more powerful but it's all about striking at the right time. Same with Ventress gaining the advantage on Kenobi and Anakin.
I go by the facts not someone's opinion. Sidious was the guy without his saber. He just put himself in a better position but Yoda still had his saber. They looked pretty equal when Sidious went all out with his force lightning and Yoda tried redirecting it. Both were hit by the after effects of the blast.
He lost because Anakin turned. Sheev wasn't able to do jackshit without his interference.
Ok.
So don't use it against Maul but not for him. Quit with the double standards.
Thats another debate entirely. Try to stay on point.
Sheev manipulated him in that situation because he's a cunning bastard. He played on Anakin's fears and it ended well for him. When Luke was around later it ended fatally for Sheev.
That's conjecture not evidence.
Yes, he manipulated as events played out just as I said. When he was vulnerable and unable to get out from under Mace's saber he switched to being weak to better manipulate Anakin.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Maul needs to be vulnerable for that to work just as any elite has to have the opening to do so.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
I'm gonna have to find the quote/reference where he let's the argument be decided by the people watching, but since you keep going on about Lucas' own commentary about Mace overpowering Sheev, and Sheev apparently legitimately begging for mercy, let's look at the quote itself:
"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand.
But this part where he pretends to lose his power* and be weak was something that I added later, because it moved the point where Anakin turns, down to this moment right here.* And you can see that he wants him to go on trial so that he can pump him for information on how to get these powers [to save Padmé]."
You've misinterpreted what Lucas says. He doesn't say Mace beats/wins against Sheev, only the he was overpowered. That doesn't include context. For example, in this instance, it's my belief that Sheev let's Mace overpower him on purpose. So, Mace still overpowers Sheev, but the context shows that Sheev allowed him to do so.
Another example is Yoda vs Sheev, At the start, Sidious overpowers Yoda with his lightning. Does that mean Sheev wins? Or after that when Yoda pushes Sidious over his desk, does that imply that Yoda wins? Obviously neither of them were allowing the other to overpower them, but the point is, is that just because someone gets overpowered, doesn't mean they're beat/defeated. What happens after is also important. In the case of Maul and Kenobi, Maul overpowers Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan still wins the duel.
So, just because Lucas says Mace overpowers Palps does not mean that he legitimately overpowers him. You're just assuming that it's what Lucas meant, which it wasn't, when you consider the next line of the quote, talking about Sheev pretending to be weak.
Lucas clearly states that Palpatine was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power right after being 'overpowered'. This would imply that he allowed himself to be overpowered. He isn't legitimately weak or begging for mercy, he's pretending to. So stop saying that he was at Mace's mercy, because although he was, it wasn't legitimately.
Of course, it's dun-moch. He's trying to tease and humiliate Yoda in order to undermine him. Regardless, when it came to force powers, Sidious won. And Lucas made it quite clear in many ways, commentary, the script, the movie itself etc. that Sidious was stronger.
Fair enough.
No.... Anakin alone was more powerful than Ventress in the force (being double that of Sheev in potential). I think what you mean to say is, the dark side can offer quick and temporary paths to power.
But the fact IS that Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. It's stated many times, and Lucas wanted Sidious to win the battle before all the details of it came up, such as where they were, positioning etc. He never intended Yoda to win at all, it was Sidious.
Even though Lucas directly states that Sheev was pretending to be weak and pretending to have lost his power?
I don't understand what you mean. I'm merely pointing out that it was not a straight up two on one advantage.
Remember that Lucas does not provide the context of Mace overpowering Sidious, and also notes that Palpatine pretended to be weak, he was not legitimately begging for mercy like a coward. This means Sidious was perfectly capable of carrying on the fight. He was not actually helpless. Not only that, but I find it hard to believe that Sheev could use lightning to disarm Yoda but not Mace. It's quite obvious that he wasn't using his full power on Mace, Lucas says so himself, and we can see that, since he later does this against Yoda, who gets straight up disarmed.
Also, I found this excellent point made on another forum regarding all of this:
--Even if Palpatine did just happen to be disarmed at the most convenient of all times, Palpatine is still clearly faking weakness when using the Force lightning against Mace and Lucas even says so: "But this part where he, he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers.” So, since Palpatine is holding back and pretends to look weak, he clearly could have held off Mace as long as he wanted or even disarmed him with his Force lightning. (Some have also argued against this, asking why Palpatine would allow himself to be disfigured. He has many reasons. Being disfigured makes him appear weaker and more helpless to Anakin, which encourages Anakin to intervene. (In fact, Palpatine may know that this is the straw that breaks the bantha's back for Anakin.) Being disfigured also provides compelling physical evidence to the Senate that the Jedi are treasonous and even murderous, and that helps garner senatorial support for the Jedi purge. Furthermore, Palpatine is not really even truly disfigured. He is merely allowing the Force mask that conceals his true appearance to drop. Force lightning doesn't disfigure Luke, and Force lightning doesn't cause manicured fingernails to turn into talons, blue eyes to turn yellow with a halo of red, and teeth to suddenly become in need of a good teeth cleaning, and all of these changes occur to Palpatine, so his lightning clearly wasn't really disfiguring him in the literal sense.)
Yoda would have no problem making Maul vulnerable.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Lol, he never replied, what a *****.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
He died in a boating accident off of Cape Cod, show some human decency....
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
However it's clear from his and Filoni's statements (and the fight itself) that Maul wasn't Kenobi's equal by this point in time. So the end result would have been th same.
Also note first going into his ROTS warrior stance (th way he used to fight) before quickly realising that's not him anymore. Makes me think more Maul probably would have had stood a decent chance against ROTS Kenobi.
Also of note is Witwer being Filoni's Padawan who is in turn Lucas's Padawan. It's clear he's had a lot of creative input into Animated Maul and likely knows all of Filoni's and Lucas's views on the character.
Personally I take Witwer's opinions over Filoni's. He just makes more sense.
I thought it was clear that Maul underestimated Obi-wan? That seems to be Maul's shtick...for some reason. Though guess it's nice to have confirmation.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on Aug 8th, 2017 at 01:59 PM
An extremely arrogant post Prime Maul (yes, post Prime, Kbro's fanwank and statement twisting aside) whose legs were crumbling apart fought a nigh undefeatable Ben Kenobi, in a duel that was made to resemble the Samurai duel that happened at the end of Seven Samurai- Seven Samurai's final duel was two strikes.
Ben can beat Rebels Maul, sure, but not stomp him.
And BTW, Sheev>>>>Windu. Not sure how people still deny this after Silver's blog was made.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
Perhaps because Silver isn't Lucas? But whatever, let's not go off topic.
Yes Rebels Kenobi > Rebels Maul. Probably > Any Maul tbh. I think ROTS Kenobi is th highest incarnation of Kenobi that Maul has a legitimate chance against.
Also think Rebels Kenobi is > Dooku. In fact ROTS Kenobi probably wasn't far off Dooku himself, despite how their fights have made it seem otherwise.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 8th, 2017 at 05:13 PM
In Silver's blog, he addresses how Lucas never said Mace won legitimately- Lucas was describing the scene from how it is viewed from a viewer's perspective, and the scene does depict Windu being overpowered. This does not mean, however, that Windu legitimately overpowered Sidious.
Sheev>>>>Mace. There are tons of arguments favoring Sheev, and the only thing the Mace fanboys have going for them has been debunked.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
I know I've read Silver's blog. But Lucas also stated Windu can legitimately compete against Sidious which Silver just brushes off with "Vapaad! Only for that 1 fight!" which kind of defeats his original point anyway.
In Canon there's not much favouring the idea that Sidious can blitz Windu.
Honestly, I don't think we should take into account that statement given how Lucas' own freaking movie contradicts it. To compete with someone, you need to at least last ninety seconds against them, not be at their mercy within seconds of the fight- as we saw in the movie.
Not only does the movie outright contradict Lucas' statement, some EU sources do too.
"Before Mace realizes what happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious' blade."
The Complete Visual Dictionary
Mace did parry three blows, yes, but that doesn't mean he could react. He had the help of Kit Fisto, who's been labeled as one of the Order's finest three times in the ROTS novel and honestly has the showings to back this assertion up.
Even then, Mace only parried due to angling his lightsaber to guard, meaning he randomly put his lightsaber in front of his body and made Sidious' blade hit it. He could do no more than that.
"In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab through his desktop."
Revenge of the Sith novel
Yeah, in Legends Sidious can pretty much blitz Windu.
In Canon, Sidious can't outright blitz Windu, but he can do something close to that, given how Mace was at Sidious' mercy in seconds, and:
"Before the Jedi could react, Palpatine sprang into action and killed all of them except Mace Windu."
Starwars.com, Palpatine Biography Gallery
Even in Canon, Sheev>>Windu. Lucas' statement cannot be considered truth when the movie itself disagrees, let alone when other sources back up the movie instead of Lucas.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
Point is nothing in the film contradicts Mace legitimately beating Sidious. And that there's no point in Silver giving an alternative interpretation of Lucas's "Mace overpowered Palpatine" quote when Lucas has also definitively stated Mace can in fact compete against him.
silver's blog is flawed because it assumes that context for mace matching sids applies to competing with him and its argument that the vapaad boost was a one time thing comes from an appeal to ignorance.
Apr 2nd, 2017 04:27 PM
