Your argument is based on pure intellectual dishonesty.
Let me clarify for the viewers reading this debate not familiar with the ins and out on KotOR what Beni is arguing here:
Because the Star Forge offers a permanent boost to Darth Malak (unconfirmed stance #1), and that said permanent boost is far greater than whatever on-nexus energies that would aid Darth Malak (unconfirmed stance #2), therefore the fact a roleplaying game does not have Darth Malak's stats as beyond game limits means that the permanent boost was negligible (wtf? stance #1), thus meaning that the statement declaring Darth Malak is "far more powerful" than Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd is retconed (wtf? stance #2).
Now, let's address why each of these points are wrong, one-by-one.
Unconfirmed stance #1:
- The only indication of this is a passing comment by a group of Rakatan Elders. These Rakatan have no experience with the Star Forge, nor did any Rakata for tens of thousands of years. What these Rakata know about the Star Forge is primarily based on archival information and legends passed down through generations. They have no first-hand experience of the Star Forge, nor is there any quotes suggesting they have any first-hand accounts of Rakatan who used the Star Forge in the past lying around. I will admit, I once did muse that Darth Malak's amp was permanent, but after I thought about it, the notion soon became laughable (Sasukedc laughed at me too, which made me sad - yo, bro, you're going to like some of the memes I use below).
- Darth Malak has had access to the Star Forge since he betrayed Revan, meaning he has had it for a year or more when he fights Revan on the Leviathan. Relatively speaking, the time then between the Leviathan and the Star Forge is comparably brief. Thus meaning, the amount of permanent power Darth Malak would have gathered from the time he assumed the mantle and the Leviathan would be far greater than that which he would get from the Leviathan to the Star Forge, especially considering he was spending "weeks" of that later time torturing Bastila Shan. Yet, we see the power Darth Malak displays on the Leviathan and it is demonstrably, statistically, and admittedly far less powerful than him on the Star Forge. There is no consistency behind this unless, again, Darth Malak's unconfirmed permanent amp isn't actually a major player here.
Unconfirmed stance #2:
- This argument, as far as I'm aware, and as everyone knows I'm a huge KotOR fan, doesn't even a in-universe comment to support. There's nothing that even mentions the idea of a permanent amp besides the Rakatan Elders. Absolutely nothing indicates this amp is greater than the on-nexus Star Forge amp, especially when considering Darth Malak constantly mocks Revan on the Star Forge how Revan is no match for him here, as in, specifically on the Star Forge:
"You made a mistake coming here, Revan. The Star Forge fuels my command of the dark side. You are no match for me here."
Any honest reader would recognize the above quote doesn't convey that Darth Malak would be similarly powerful off the Star Forge. He's ranting and raving about how powerful he is while on it. Of course he's still powerful off it, but by no means comparatively powerful. Also, if you know Darth Malak, you know he's laughably arrogant. He wouldn't make state that he'd only whoop Revan's ass on the Star Forge if he could whoop it on Tatooine too.
Wtf? stance #1:
- This argument doesn't even warrant a response. If we're going to take stats seriously now, I assure you Darth Malak will be coming out of this far better off than he would with just using this canonical and LFL-approval quote: he would be in league with Darth Sidious, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, etc.
Wtf? stance #2:
- I can't even address this point because I can't fathom the mental gymnastics Beni did just to get there.
So, overall, Beni's argument is rooted in falsehoods, unsupported claims, and overall retardation. Again, within the context of KotOR, the Exiles like Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, etc., were in awe over the nexus provided by them for the Star Map, which was a laughably inferior nexus to the Star Forge. The Star Forge is one of the most potent nexus' in Star Forge. On it, Darth Malak will be, as quotes stated, "virtually unstoppable:"
"Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."
If you take "Malak's in game stats as a reflection of his canon abilities," that therefore means you must do the same for all other characters.
That does mean that you have to take other statistics as accurate summations - why the **** wouldn't you?
I assume you'll say that the quote is within the context of game stats, but it's not - it's an independent description of the character.
The idea that you can selectively decide Malak's stats are legit but no one else's is the most retarded thing I ever heard.
That being said, this isn't even relevant. I explained why, above, the stats don't reflect the permanent amp - since that's not what it's referring to.
--- --- ----
Hello viewer, me again. My final point:
I have presented the most basic and straightforward interpretation of everything, backed by a great amount of quotes, and it yields no contradiction.
Beni, on the other hand, is doing everything he possibly can to make a contradiction work.
Even if you don't take the quote seriously, it's clear who's right in this particular circumstance.
That being said, I have little interest of continuing the debate since everyone seems to agree with me anyway.
If you personally agree with Beni, which I don't think anyone does, let me know below so you and I can discuss what's up.
Otherwise, I think this debate is over.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 05:17 PM
Hilarious. Was the part where you proceed to immediately launch into strawman intended for ironic effect? At the very least try not to be so blatant about rewriting my stance so you're able to rebut it. It makes you look pathetic.
Right, an element of authorial intent can be inferred here. We know that the Elders were descendent from the Rakatan high priest case who possessed the body of knowledge on the nature of the Star Forge which they sealed away within the Temple of Ancients. So it remains well within the realm of possibility that the Elders had preserved a basic understanding of how the Star Forge operated. The fact that the Elders declare that Malak is getting stronger as a fact, rather than a belief, implying that they had factual basis for their claim.
But again, as I said:You opted to ignore this paragraph is exchange for a strawman shitshow, so I can only assume that it because you have no rebuttal. Shame.
The disparity between Malak and SF Malak is irrelevant and a red herring. Even if Malak were far more powerful on the Star Forge than he was when not, this wouldn't preclude the SF giving Malak permanent enhancements, which evidently it did.
Nonetheless you failed to provide any substantiated proof that this is the case anyway, so who cares?
I never claimed this, and in fact stated that Malak was strongest on the Star Forge, needless to say its not relevant to the point, so I'm not even going to bother responding lmfao.
Good, I didn't plan to waste any more time on your strawman anyway.
Right... was this supposed to be funny?
Irrelevant, as I already explained.
Not getting the joke, Tony.
Sorry? Simply because they are reflections, doesn't mean they are accurate.
Regardless, yes, RPG stats reflect their standing within canon because, well, that's how RPGs work. But because they are adjusted for the game's purposes, they are nonetheless unreliable. I'm sure you know this.
I never once said the stats are legit, in fact, I explictly stated that they are not. Are you confident in reading?
Right, so in short you've rebutted shit and done nothing by flounder. This is really getting sad Tony. Anyway, I'll just leave this here:
1. The original article says that Malak had "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd".
2. To reflect this Malak was given "out of proportion" ingame stats & abilities
3. Had 1. still been the case come 2008, the aforementioned stats would have remained disproportionate, but they didn't, so evidently, it isn't.
The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character. By no means does that make them or any other statistics accurate summations of the characters power in and of themselves.
Wow. Are you actually... begging for support here? You know, you had a lot going for you Ant, you even had a tweet from the author to back yourself up, and yet, even when you win, you lose.
This debate is over, yeah, good day and until next time Tony.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 06:53 PM
For starters, I just re-read the original article, and the quote of the day:
"Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?
is of different nature than the following:
Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion.
The latter quote is specifically within game terms, when considering the full context:
Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.
Thus, it's specifically within the RPG stats that such a statement belongs.
You know this already, but I feel I have to make an explicit point in noting the difference between that and the Exar Kun quote, which is the narrative stating it from an out-of-universe, non-gameplay perspective.
My point being the latter quote holds as much legitimacy as would the quotes stating Bastila Shan is of the same level as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Dooku, since that, too, is within "game terms."
--- --- ---
Moving forward, your argument is that a quote, specifically within the context of the game, therefore retcons out of the game.
No, it doesn't. You yourself admit there is a premise someone has to accept before even reading your argument (all other wrongs aside):
Beniboybling: The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character.
Yeah, no. That's not a premise I'm accepting. I don't think that's a premise anyone is accepting.
Why?
(please log in to view the image)
I understand Chee once remarked how they did reflect this and that, but that was many years ago.
This is the existing policy. (credit to DarthSkywalker0 for quote). This is the one I'm using.
And then let's bring up this beauty for a second:
No, you ****ing can't, lmfao.
Why?
Because if we're going strictly be Chee, then the following is also true:
Leland Chee: They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another.
Leland Chee: They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another.
Meaning that no, stats can absolutely be used to compare characters. Thus you have no claim to say it can't be if you're opening that door.
I'm saying: let's not use stats, because if we do, Malak is Sidious level. Canonically.
--- --- ---
And on one last note, your "categorical" shit is nonsense. The quote does not state the amp is permanent. There is no reality where this quote:
Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers..."
conveys the notion that it's permanent. I would argue the opposite, actually. My interpretation, as stated prior, and again once supported by more evidence than yours, is that:
Darth Malak, using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers..."
In other words, I take the quote that, if Darth Malak is not using said power source, he therefore does not possess "extraordinary dark side Force powers..."
Your entire argument rests on that this quote definitely states this is a permanent amp, but I'm reading this quote and it doesn't even imply that it's permanent.
Your version of the quote, if it suggests an amp, doesn't make sense, since the context of the paragraph is under the assumption he has said powers (i.e. "enhanced Force powers").
Even if it is a permanent amp, which it absolutely is not for a variety of reasons I already discussed, it wouldn't matter, due to points made above.
--- --- ---
Hello dear audience, me again.
I imagine none of you are following this debate anymore, and I can't blame you.
Anywho, to sum it all up:
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Malak is far more powerful than Kun.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 07:33 PM
Anyway, you said this was debate was over. And your floundering is becoming nauseous. So I'll just leave some final bullet points:
1. In game terms his stats are disproportionate. In lore terms his powers were enhanced by the Star Forge to be "far greater" than the competition - not hard to figure.
2. A tweet from Pablo in 2017 isn't relevant to Legends 2008.
3. The Chee quote says stats CAN be used in such a capacity. Not must, or do. Can.
4. It's categorical, yeah. It doesn't say he can possess, or is able to possess, or that sometimes he possesses, but simply: he possesses. That's categorical. Obviously, he was using the Star Forge to achieve this, and without the Star Forge, he never would have.
Now bye.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 12:20 AM
Sep 2nd, 2017 10:26 AM
