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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except that statement is factually incorrect because Yoda never attacked, and Dooku never used tutanimis.



thumb up

Just like the statements stating Sidious pushed Yoda's shit in. Clearly they are factually incorrect because they were both helpless at the end cool

Old Post Nov 2nd, 2016 02:36 PM
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Kurk
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Not to mention Yoda was grunting and straining so hard in that fight I thought he was going to bust a nut!


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UCanShootMyNova
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The first time I've agreed with you Azzie.


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Old Post Nov 2nd, 2016 04:34 PM
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Azronger
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Bumping this in light of a newly-discovered quote:

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

http://imgur.com/84WNvvI (Star Wars Fact File)

So Yoda couldn't defeat Dooku with the Force. This is now fact.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 06:19 PM
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DarthAnt66
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laughing out loud "newly-discovered"

I posted that the other week. We are all aware there are quotes that state Dooku and Yoda were evenly matched, especially in Fact Files.

There's also quotes saying Dooku was blatantly outclassed and that Yoda repelled Dooku's attacks "easily," even within Fact Files.

FWI, Yoda "resorted" to his weapon since Dooku directly challenged him to a lightsaber-duel, not that he had no other options available.

Yoda visibly never attacked Dooku with the Force the entire engagement.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 06:30 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
laughing out loud "newly-discovered"

I posted that the other week. We are all aware there are quotes that state Dooku and Yoda were evenly matched, especially in Fact Files.


Um, yes, it is relatively new. And no, they were not "evenly matched", at least not in any source that I am aware of.

quote:
There's also quotes saying Dooku was blatantly outclassed and that Yoda repelled Dooku's attacks "easily," even within Fact Files.


Quotes?

quote:
FWI, Yoda "resorted" to his weapon since Dooku directly challenged him to a lightsaber-duel, not that he had no other options available.


The quote said he needed to resort to it. Yoda does not need to resort to his weapon if someone challenges him to a duel; he has no obligation whatsoever to do that.

The quote's as clear as day: Yoda needed to resort to his weapon because he couldn't subdue Dooku with the Force.

quote:
Yoda visibly never attacked Dooku with the Force the entire engagement.


Doesn't contradict the quote whatsoever.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 06:39 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
And no, they were not "evenly matched"


"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

(please log in to view the image)

There's deadass a dozen of these quotes.

Also a lot saying Yoda easily repelled Dooku's attacks if you check Aurbere's respect thread.

The Dooku vs Yoda verdict is so inconsistent that using tertiary sources to make a definitive statement is the embodiment of stupidity.

I think a primary reason is that until ROTS, some authors did think it's possible that Yoda = Dooku.

ROTS completely destroyed that notion with Anakin stomping Dooku and Yoda stalemating Sidious, though.

I knew you were relatively new here, but I never realized you haven't yet realized this.

We can conclude that Yoda is indeed significantly more powerful than Dooku based on his performance with the Emperor in Episode III.

Not to mention most of the primary and secondary sources support the notion that Yoda won easily / solidly.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 06:46 PM
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Rockydonovang
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yoda easily repelling dooku's lighting doesn't at all have to mean yoda is vastly above dooku force wise.

Someone wanna post quotes saying yoda was much more powerful?

Coz if not, we have favctual statements satying yoda and sids were close enough he couldn't just tk him.

And sids choking dooku can easily be explained by dooku not having his guard up

Old Post May 5th, 2017 07:24 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
yoda easily repelling dooku's lighting doesn't at all have to mean yoda is vastly above dooku force wise.



erm

What else could that mean?

And why would Dooku call it a draw before Yoda even attacked him? Could it be because he didn't want to face the Wrath of Yoda's force powers after seeing how easily he dealt with Dooku's attacks?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang


And sids choking dooku can easily be explained by dooku not having his guard up



You mean it can be ignored in favour of fanboyism.

Last edited by Darth Thor on May 5th, 2017 at 07:33 PM

Old Post May 5th, 2017 07:30 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

(please log in to view the image)


Right. Let's now take a look at what the quote actually says:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Emphasis on the word "too". The inclusion of this word means that Dooku and Yoda aren't necessarily equals, just that they are comparable enough that they cannot defeat each other. Similarly, there's a quote stating Palpatine was "too powerful" for Yoda to defeat, but that doesn't mean Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda, only that Palpatine's power prevents him from being defeated. In the same vein, being "more powerful" than someone doesn't mean they are too powerful for you to handle or defeat.

But you may be wondering: If Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, then how is that he can only stalemate the latter? The answer is simple: Yoda lacks any inherently lethal Force ability. Telekinesis is not designed to kill like Force Lightning, and you can only use it effectively in combat if you powerful enough to ragdoll your foe, which, as we can conclude from these quotes, Yoda is not.

And even if it meant what you think it does (it doesn't), it wouldn't defeat my stance, since only that quote would be dismissed. All the others would remain just as valid.

quote:
There's deadass a dozen of these quotes.


By that you mean zero? There is no quote in existence that claims Yoda = Dooku in power, unless you really have one. But most likely you've just misinterpreted every single one of them. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

quote:
Also a lot saying Yoda easily repelled Dooku's attacks if you check Aurbere's respect thread.


There's SW.com which is Canon, not Legends, and there is Dooku's own POV, which can be dismissed due to it being, well, his limited point of view, only seeming like Yoda wasn't having any difficulty on the outside, despite that not being the case at all.

quote:
The Dooku vs Yoda verdict is so inconsistent that using tertiary sources to make a definitive statement is the embodiment of stupidity.


It's only inconsistent in the lightsaber department, which isn't what this thread is about. All the Force quotes state the same: Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku. And even if there was inconsistency, then the latest source would simply take priority. It's that simple. There's no need to go on about egotistical rants about what's stupid and what's not.

quote:
I think a primary reason is that until ROTS, some authors did think it's possible that Yoda = Dooku.


Possible, but irrelevant, given that none of the quotes actually state that.

quote:
ROTS completely destroyed that notion with Anakin stomping Dooku and Yoda stalemating Sidious, though.


It didn't destroy anything since that notion was never canon.

quote:
I knew you were relatively new here, but I never realized you haven't yet realized this.


Realized what? If this turns into another derogatory insult-fest, then you're wasting your time; I'm not listening nor do I care how many gifs you spam.

quote:
We can conclude that Yoda is indeed significantly more powerful than Dooku based on his performance with the Emperor in Episode III.


Indeed we can. The gap is significant, but not large enough to constitute a ragdoll.

quote:
Not to mention most of the primary and secondary sources support the notion that Yoda won easily / solidly.


In regards to lightsaber combat, yes. But that doesn't matter here.


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Last edited by Azronger on May 5th, 2017 at 07:49 PM

Old Post May 5th, 2017 07:47 PM
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Rockydonovang
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1. That a superior force user can easily reflect your lightning? Why are we assuming easily reflecting someone's lightning means you're vastly more powerful.

2. All that means is dooku is inferior.

given that yoda didn't just subdue him outright with tk, even though that would be the easiest way to and wouldn't require hurting dooku(in fact it would be less risky then a saber duel), him not being powerful enough to outright pick him up or incap him without hurting him(like say by blasting him) makes sense.

3. It can be disregarded because there's a reasonable explanation which can easily reconcile the showing with what is said by multiple sources. And if sids could really do that outright then its dubious why yoda, a near equal/equal of sids didn't just lift or pin him which would have been a way easier and harmless way to take the count out.

People are assuming that yoda not attacking means he didn't want to attack. Its quoite possible the only way yoda could attack count was through pushes/ blasts rather than pulls or disarmament becausse of there not being that big of gap. And pushes and blasts might
a. just help dooku escape if they're too light putting him closer to his ship.
b. if they're hard enough end up hurting dooku

The above explantion is both perfectly plausible and more importantly has multiple quotes supporting it and thus has a solid basis.

Old Post May 5th, 2017 07:50 PM
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Kurk
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It seems like a lot of people with certain personality types are going to by default hate on Dooku by default because they don't value self-discipline, hard work, and intelligence.

I'd suppose that these individuals have been wronged at some-point by a successful Dooku-like figure.


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Old Post May 6th, 2017 12:39 AM
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Beniboybling
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The same Fact File also says that Yoda's power in the Force is incomparable, it's inconsistent and dumb yeah.


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Old Post May 6th, 2017 09:30 AM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The same Fact File also says that Yoda's power in the Force is incomparable, it's inconsistent and dumb yeah.


If that's the case, then only said quote, not the entire source, can be dismissed as obvious hyperbole.


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Old Post May 6th, 2017 10:58 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
It seems like a lot of people with certain personality types are going to by default hate on Dooku



Lol putting him below Yoda isn't hating. The good Count got solidly overpowered by Anakin in Sabers and owned by Palpatine in the Force (from another planet).

Yoda is easily equal to Anakin in Sabers and at least a near equal to Palpatine in the Force.

Old Post May 6th, 2017 02:33 PM
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Azronger
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ILS let's go


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:08 AM
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ChocolateMuesli
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Nah. Dooku was terrified by Sidious in DR and then he lost to Yoda on a dark side nexus. He's not on their level. But he's good enough to last for a bit, provided they don't go all out with Force attacks from the start. And that's more than you can say for most.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:17 AM
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ThirdReich
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Assuming Sidious and Yoda don't go all out and TK him into space, the likes of Dooku can obviously contend with great difficulty in sabers. He's slower and weaker but still very skilled and experienced... don't lowball him too much


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:21 AM
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ThirdReich
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol putting him below Yoda isn't hating. The good Count got solidly overpowered by Anakin in Sabers and owned by Palpatine in the Force (from another planet).

Yoda is easily equal to Anakin in Sabers and at least a near equal to Palpatine in the Force.

He was doing just fine until Anakin gets angry :/
Also Palpatine's force feat isn't impressive at all as Dooku obviously wasn't ready for that attack...


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:25 AM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
ILS let's go
Relative to Sids and Yoda, how close do you have Dooku to them? Can Dooku take a win? Go down everytime with a good fight? Avoid being ragdolled?

My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:31 AM
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