kbro did have a point about some of the stuff I said last page, I don't think all the arguments I made are ironclad, e.g the point about Anakin. They were just general points about why I think it's obvious Dooku isn't supposed to be near Yoda - if Dooku's getting stomped by Anakin, I think it's another reason to think Yoda ragdolling Dooku is gonna be the reality. Not 100% logical proof.. just an observation. Az doesn't accept them either, hence why I'm closing in on this bit about Maul/Opress and the hologram choke. If Az, or even kbro, can get around those, I'll tip my fedora.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I've responded to Dooku vs Oppress vs Ventress twice bro, but keep making excuses.
And I'm assuming you're referring to Stover's hyperbole as the basis of your assertion that Anakin stomped Dooku which interestingly enough remains the only source to potray the fight as one sidedly as it does and happens to be the version of the novel that most contradicts the movie's depiction.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies
The issue here is that you are once again adding in sabers to the mix. In a pure Force fight, Dooku would annihilate Ventress and Savage, and you've not managed to contest that notion (so far). Them being an inferior team to Maul and Savage is not an issue against Dooku here, because the arguments you have presented so far only restrict Dooku to being the Zabrak's inferior in sabers (even that is arguable, but I'll leave it for another time), but they do not tie him down in the realm of the Force, where you already essentially conceded that Yoda not wrecking Dooku makes sense if the Ventress/Savage fight is not factored in - which it isn't as it doesn't limit Dooku as a Force user in any capacity.
This is factually false. George Lucas himself, the highest authority in Star Wars, wrote this piece of text personally:
YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.
YODA_(continuing):_The end for you, Count, this is.
--Attack of the Clones script
So Yoda went into the fight with the intended purpose of killing Dooku. If he could have crumbled Dooku into a ball with the Force like you say, he would have.
And just to make it absolutely clear, the scripts were recognized as on par with the movies in terms of canonicity back when the old system was in place. With Disney's takeover the G/T/C/S/N canon system is no longer a thing, but the scripts should remain perfectly valid Legends material nonetheless:
"The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon."
Um, no. Yoda's goal was Dooku's death. The quote states Yoda needed to use his lightsaber in his fight against Dooku despite praising his command of the Force just a sentence earlier. Therefore, Yoda could not have killed Dooku with the Force, if he needed to resort to his lightsaber.
Define "realistic" and "unrealistic". To me, the only thing in Star Wars that is unrealistic is that which is not logical. Everything that can be argued using logic is realistic, because most of the time, there is no canonical answer to these matchups, so even things like Obi-Wan vs Valkorion are realistic stances if a logical argument can be made, no matter how much autistic screeching that would cause.
However, in the case of Dooku and Maul, the former has been portrayed as superior since day one. Just compare their respective performances against Obi-Wan. Then we have additional quotes like these:
More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in_Attack of the Clones.
--Panel-to-Panel Volume 1
"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.
--Legacy of the Jedi
There was also a head-to-head article stating that Maul would be "no match" for Dooku, specifically because of the latter's Force abilities. And while, that, to my understanding, isn't canon, it still goes to show that the gap I'm creating here isn't even close to being "unrealistic" if even officially published material has Dooku as Maul's vast superior.
In addition, we have Plagueis musing Dooku would be a worthy candidate for a Sith apprentice should Sidious blow his cover, and objective quotes saying Dooku could have one day been Yoda's equal in the Force, or in other words, his potential equals Yoda's, and given how aged the Count is, he should have attained most of it by the time of his death. It makes total sense and is perfectly realistic to say he's closer to Yoda and Sidious than he is to Maul.
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.
But ultimately, whether any of this makes sense to you is irrelevant, because you are just a fan, like me, and not a canonical authority. If you want to prove me wrong, you have to use logic, not claims about something being unrealistic in your personal opinion.
So your argument here is that because Ventress was Dooku's loyal apprentice, she would not try resist or fight back, which is the exact same logic I use to dismiss Sidious choking Dooku via holo. Fair enough, I would not want to employ double standards. However, fortunately for me, I do have an instance where Dooku dominates Ventress and she definitely was trying to resist:
(please log in to view the image)
Again, I see no reason why Dooku wouldn't be able to dominate both Savage and Ventress at the same time.
__________________ "Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine
Last edited by Azronger on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 03:36 PM