No you've used it to say he had to forge his normal style to catch his opponents off guard. But that's not what happened. The fight starts with both brothers on the attack and Kenobi defending himself.
From Shadow Conspiracy:
Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them both at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail-he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had.
“Surrender,” Maul said quietly. “We are two, and you are no match for us both.”
Obi-Wan ignited both Adi’s lightsaber and his own.
“You are mistaken,” he said-and then he hurled himself at the two Sith, both sabers flashing in his hands.
The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attacks.
This clearly contradicts the actual episode, where right after Obi-Wan says you are mistaken, he still waits for Maul and Opress to attack.
It's actually pretty normal for Prequel Kenobi to attack. I don't know why you're trying to make out that's some strange thing he's doing-
From the very last episode and their very last fight:
Besides it shouldn't matter, given you're using these same examples to prove Dooku >>> Kenobi?
Now clearly, Kenobi does usually fight better when he fights defensively, but fact is it's very much in character for him to fight offensively as well as of the Prequel era at least. And his fight against Maul and Opress was clearly a perfect blend of all his defensive and offensive maneuvres, so much so that he fought much better here than he did against Maul solo earlier in the same episode when he was more on the defensive.
Again, Physical attacks is something Kenobi does quite a bit. He just used it earlier on Maul outside in fact, just before a massive attack on Opress
Yeah nothing except his far superior performances against Opress and Anakin. Heck his TCW Movie showing even has him outclassing Ventress to a similar degree that Dooku outclasses her.
Because it did nothing significant to Anakin.
Anakin shown to be slightly inferior, because he got hit a couple of times. But given those hits had no major effect on Anakin at all, it again just portrays Dooku has having only an "edge" over Anakin. At least for that particular fight.
You have a very strange definition of being clowned and outclassed.
Dooku tried to kill Anakin in TCW movie and utterly failed. He also showed no superiority in Sabers.
Dock failed to capture Anakin alone in S4 Shadow Warrior, and needed help from multiple magna guards to gain superiority.
Anakin WON he Saber fight in S4 Crisis on Naboo, and it was only Dooku's force powers which helped him survive and which gave him an edge.
You've completely ignored that Anakin WON the sober fight. Dock's force powers were required to even the odds.
So are you denying clash of styles?
If you are then Maul's clearly superior to Dooku given how they both faired against Opress.
If not, then you must consider Kenobi is only losing to Dooku because of that. Because going by other fights, there clearly shouldn't be a massive gap there.
For the record it's not just about clash of styles. Sometimes a combatant just has someone's number down. This was very much the case with Rebels Kenobi vs Maul. Suckering Maul with Qui-Gon's stance showed he knew exactly how to deal with Maul in particular.
Not sure exactly what you're trying to prove here, or what you're arguing.
Press using his beastly TK waves in that cave would have been harder (just like on the ship in Revenge against Ventress), with Maul in the same vicinity and the positions of all 3 combatants continuously shifting.
His TK waves are quite widespread and not as focused or masterful as Maul's, hence why Maul utilised his at times, but Opress couldn't do much, even when Kenobi was focused on Maul.
And for the record, Kenobi was much smaller than either brother at the time. So of course manoeuvring would be easier to him.
I never picked out this line from SC as any kind of proof. I pointed out that firstly your cherry picking parts of the book that you like. I've already shown Kenobi isn't the one to initiate the offensive as stated in the book to take the brothers by surprise.
I've also given my own logical reasons why the cave would be disadvantageous to the brothers. Maul's chicken legs are already confirmed to be limiting his martial arts and acrobatics. They will only be even more limited in tight spaces.
Opress's Force Waves will be harder to utilise as well. And Soresu is confirmed in Canon to only require limited space, so Kenobi wouldn't have been disadvantaged at all, except of course in being outnumbered.
Yes, especially in that tight space. When he TK hit both Anakin and Obi-Wan they were at a distance from him. When he choked Ventress and Dooku they were also at a distance and distracted. When he waved them the second time, they were attempting to close the distance. Also in all those cases, he could just wave everyone/everything in site, as he had no allies.
When he TK'd Adi, she was close buy, but there was no Maul in the way. And it was the move he used to gain the advantage. It wasn't his opening move.
Oh Dooku certainly had ample opportunity to TK Pin both Opress and Ventress. The fight began with both combatants in front of him at a bit of distance.
He simply knew he couldn't.
There's no shaky comparison at all. Dooku clearly put in effort just to keep Opress at bay with his Force powers. And that was a combination of TK and FL. It also took him similar effort to subdue Ventress with his force powers in their 1 v 1, again a combination of TK and FL.
Compare that to Sidious casually TKing (without FL) and crushing a much stronger duo combined while laughing. There's really no comparison. So Sidious ragdolling Dooku was pretty consistent with what we've previously seen. Sure it might take him more effort than it took to TK Maul. But there's really no reason to believe it would take him much more effort than it took to Pin Maul+Opress.
Or perhaps it was Kenobi who was performing much better. He's likely improved from S3 to S5, has faced Opress multiple times by then, so is much more ready, plus was even more focused after Adi's death. Did Kenobi ever have that peak level of focus against Dooku? Doubt it.
Too much speculation involved there. There's no way to objectively measure how much a person is being forced back, and how much they are willingly giving ground.
Given that, unless the losing ground actually leads to something after, all that's really important is how well their defences are holding up, and how capably they continue to parry the blows of the person on the offensive.
Maul disarmed Opress out in 2 parries and a wrist lock.
Kenobi traded several blow with Opress one on one whilst Maul was at a distance. Maul clearly performed better against Opress than either Kenobi or Dooku.
That doesn't mean he's superior to either one. It just mean clash of styles and do exist and do matter. Every fight is different.
Heck just look at Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi. You yourself have admitted the difference isn't nearly as big as it initially seemed. So a seeming stomp doesn't necessitate a massive difference between combatants.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 9th, 2017 at 01:47 PM
Honestly, I might not respond to the entire thing since life is getting busier and these posts are getting really long.
However this isn't a good example of anything. Ben Kenobi vs Maul was specifically supposed to be a different style of fighting, was stated to be shorter because the characters have fought each other numerous times before. The intent behind this fight doesn't apply to other fights in the mythos.
Authorial intent behind a specific fight is one thing. But then it takes part in a larger universe and starts adding to cases of very short fights not necessarily meaning the gap between combatants is huge. Another example would be Maul vs Opress. Now sure Maul is solidly above Opress, but that just made Opress look like Maul's dealing with a youngling or something. Heck I'm sure S1 Ahsoka could have done better.
But Even going by authorial comments, Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance. So point is, it was simply the wrong fight for Maul, as Kenobi knew just how to deal with him.
With Dooku and Kenobi it could be a combination of things- clash of styles, and Dooku just having his number down pretty well.
Unless the other fights in the mythos were styled in the same way as Kenobi vs Maul for the same out of and in universe reasons, they can't be explained in the same way.
Which can be explained with tera kasi or Maul being able to leverage his unique legs. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what Ben vs Maul special.
Which is fine, it only strengthens my point.
The only thing present here is a style advantage, which hardly makes up for Kenobi having backup
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
@ILS
Um, no, Dooku is pretty good at multitasking with the Force:
(please log in to view the image)
Dooku just pimp slapped three elite Force users. Not to compare the two Nightsisters with Savage individually, but they were noted to be the best on Dathomir, and there were two of them plus Ventress, and Dooku was poisoned, drugged, and exhausted, so it's a pretty good feat.
How does Dooku need to duel Ventress before ragdolling her? How does that make any sense? In my gif it's apparent Dooku could pin her to a wall and disarm her rather casually anytime he wanted. Dueling has nought to do with it.
He seemed to require even less effort to choke Savage:
(please log in to view the image)
I don’t know. One could also ask why even drew his saber in the first place, when he’s fully capable of dodging them both at once unarmed. Or why he didn’t Force rape Kenobi in their duel on Oba Diah despite being fully capable of doing so to an even more powerful Kenobi while having a far more powerful Anakin breathing down his neck too. Or why he didn’t wreck Anakin with the Force in the TCW movie even though Ventress did... The answer is that characters often don’t act logically in duels, because the choreographers prioritize entertainment and cool factor over logic. Which is why you have Maul struggling with Sugi, a dog, and Pre Vizsla; and Anakin struggling with Hondo, etc. Dave Filoni has admitted this himself. This is why I don’t subscribe to the notion of “morals on” or “morals off” in a battle forum setting, because if you solely judge based on their so-called “morals”, on how they are depicted fighting in the stories themselves, every character is essentially an idiot and only use their Force powers at completely random and inconsistent intervals. I personally just look at characters’ list of abilities, feats and accolades, and ignore fighting choreography or how they use said abilities and when.
You are using Canon material here, when I was only agreeing to Legends. Of course in Canon Dooku would be casually flattened to a wall by Sidious or Yoda. One must simply look at how Mother Talzin, a peer of Sidious, handled Dooku and that’s obvious.
But if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know.
It didn’t save him against Ventress and Savage, because he didn’t even use it there. Other than that, I don’t see your point here. Dooku has multiple quotes suggesting he was powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by Yoda. That’s plenty more command of the Force and TK power than Maul and Savage combined.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
My extraordinary evidence is here:
The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched
--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.
--Fact File
Eh, fair enough.
We’ll see. So far I’ve proven that if the Ventress/Savage fight isn’t being used to argue Dooku’s limits as a Force user, there is nothing contradicting the quotes - a point you’ve conceded. I’ve proven that Yoda was aiming to kill Dooku - a point you’ve also conceded. And finally I have proven that Yoda is willing to ragdoll and blast his foes about in combat - a point you’ve not yet conceded but one I’m eagerly awaiting your reaction to. From the looks of things, it doesn’t seem like I’m losing or anything.
There's nothing suggesting those two are "elite Force users" anywhere near Savage. The fact that a rookie Savage and Ventress nearly killed a fresh Dooku, whereas a drugged Dooku managed to do that to them, proves how inferior they are. So no, I don't take that as evidence Dooku can ragdoll Savage and Ventress.
Because before he ragdolled her, he dueled her and Force pushed her. Roughing her up and taxing her reserves. If you want to tell me Dooku can just ragdoll Savage and Ventress whenever he wants to, you need to lay a precedent down for it. We've got two examples of Dooku engaging in lightsaber fights before any ragdolling happens, but you want me to believe he can just raise a hand and ragdoll them.
Yeah, that's Savage the first time he used a lightsaber, right at the start of his training, without Ventress there to help him. Not really evidence for your point.
I wonder why it is you're so unwilling to express the same sentiment when it comes to Yoda and Dooku.
Your whole thing so far has been "if Yoda could have, he would have", even though there are many logical reasons a Jedi wouldn't ragdoll his opponent - but I'm supposed to assume a murderous Sith like Dooku withheld from Force choking his opponents in all of these scenarios not because he couldn't, but because there were lightsabers involved? Give me a break Az, nobody has to be that generous towards you.
In canon, non-Force users tend to do much better, yeah.
I'm not talking about morals on and off. I'm talking about the fact Jedi are not encouraged to win by ragdolling their opponents, let alone the Grandmaster of the Order who is supposed to embody these ideals. That's something embedded into Yoda's character, not "cool factor over logic". You're using out of universe rationale to explain away what you don't like.
Ignoring canon events when we're discussing canon characters is an open concession on your part, and an attempt to cherry pick evidence. Legends doesn't exist without canon.
In Legends we have Dooku pissing his pants before Sidious in YR, IIRC he perceived Sidious as a black hole in the Force during RotS, and Sidious ragdolling the Maul brothers, and probably more shit I can't remember. You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul or Savage outside of your insistence on these summary quotes of the AotC fight meaning what you'd like them to mean.
He didn't use it... why? He was perfectly willing to use Force attacks, so why not ragdoll them both, as you seem to think he can? Again, you're insisting on these three quotes being proof Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku, and you have no evidence outside of them.
You totally ignored my points about command of the Force, and the glaring disparity shown between Dooku and Sidious regarding their fights against duos, so I'm taking this as a concession.
If you're using canon material as evidence, you're admitting that Sidious can ragdoll Dooku from light years away.
Okay, in your fictional setup where we ignore canon and just use Legends, Yoda would be willing to Force push Dooku. He chose not to - in fact he chose not to retaliate in any way apart from throwing his lightning back at him. That doesn't mean he can't ragdoll him. That means he chose not to use Force push.
Your intellectual dishonesty has become apparent now. We're supposed to afford Dooku this charity rationale of "he could have ragdolled Savage and Ventress if he wanted to/if there were no lightsabers involved, but XYZ". But when it comes to Yoda, your attitude becomes "If Yoda could have, he would have."
I'm getting really bored, and besides, your whole argument falls apart when you don't use summarising Legends quotes as evidence over Canon events anyway. That goes to show how far you're grasping for straws.
Went over these already, and they're an inferior source of evidence to canon. You also dodged my entire point, which is that, outside of these three quotes you're clinging to, Dooku has no chance in hell of being more powerful than Maul and Savage combined.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
This was in response to you saying Dooku would need to split his attention between multiple targets, making his task more difficult. I showed this to prove it wouldn't be an issue for him.
That, coupled with the fact that it would take very little effort to choke either Ventress or Savage, as you've already conceded that my math was "on point," is sufficient proof for me that he could ragdoll both at once. So essentially:
Dooku can ragdoll multiple Force users at once, no problem
It only takes around 10 % (rough estimate) of Dooku's power to ragdoll either Ventress or Savage, leaving 90 % of it free to use on the other --> It takes only 20 % of Dooku's power to ragdoll both of them at once
Therefore, Dooku could ragdoll and insta-stomp both Ventress and Savage at once with Telekinesis, with minimal effort.
Right, and you think Ventress gets tired after a few minutes of dueling? And that Dooku would be unable to ragdoll her before "roughing her up"? We can simply point to the case of Obi-Wan Kenobi, where he was so significantly ahead of Ventress that he could crack her ribs with a simple Force push while smiling. Three years later, Obi-Wan has grown vastly more powerful, and what does Dooku do with him? Force stomp him in the middle of the duel, while having an infinitely more powerful Force user than Savage in the form of Anakin to deal with. No "roughing up" required, unless you think a few seconds of clashing blades and a single Force push somehow taxes Kenobi's Force reserves (it doesn't).
I have proven that Dooku can ragdoll multiple Force users at once easily. I have proven that Dooku takes a tiny fraction of his power to ragdoll both Ventress and Savage at once. I have proven Dooku can and has ragdolled and one-shot far more powerful Force users than Ventress while having a far more powerful Force user and duelist than Savage to deal with. I think that's enough of a precedent laid.
It's enough evidence to further my point that ragdolling Savage is effortless child's play for him, which coincides with my other points that I have made so far, with all of them forming the conclusion that Dooku can indeed dominate both Ventress and Savage at once.
I'm unwilling to express this sentiment when it comes to Yoda and Dooku because there are explicit quotes stating Yoda couldn't have beaten Dooku with the Force. Why Dooku didn't stomp Ventress and Savage is not my concern; all that matters is that he could have.
Yet we see this "embodiment of Jedi ideals" use the Force with authority and violent intent many times, debunking quite nicely the idea that it's "embedded into Yoda's character." Perhaps you'd have a point with ESB Yoda, who is a different character than RotS Yoda, at least prior to the latter realizing that you can't fight fire with fire; you can't fight the Sith with their own weapon and win - which he understood during his fight with Palpatine.
Anyway, I'm not even sure where this idea comes from that Jedi "aren't encouraged to win by ragdolling their opponents." ESB perhaps, but that doesn't work, as I've already explained. There's nothing wrong with Force gripping your opponent in and of itself; it is the emotions fueling that Force grip that matter. This is the reason why the Jedi Council allowed Plo Koon to continue using his Electric Judgement ability. Although it was identical to Sith Lightning in effect, Koon did not use anger or hate to fuel its use, making it valid in the Jedi Council's eyes.
And I'm not just "explaining away" what I don't like. If you want an in-universe explanation for why supposed master duelists keep using retarded sword moves that would get you killed in a real fight, or not using their Force powers, I don't have one. There comes a point where out-of-universe reasoning must be mixed in, a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise things simply stop making sense and we get an assload of false quotes proclaiming amateurs to be master swordsmen and the entire lightsaber dueling hierarchy needing to be reconstructed from scratch.
Um, we agreed to the rules of the debate in the first few posts: Legends only, no Canon only content. TCW applies since it's also part of Legends. The fact that you are you are now attempting to shift the rules of the debate instead of playing by them indicates you don't have a counter to my evidence of Yoda ragdolling and pushing his foes, which is true, since I don't see it anywhere in your post.
And no, it’s not a concession if I never contested the point. I was already in agreement with you that Canon Dooku gets stomped by Canon Yoda on the basis of the Talzin feat. If you want to have a debate in the first place, then stop pushing this “Legends doesn’t exist without Canon” paradigm because if Canon is mixed in, then there’s no debate to be had because I already agree with you.
Also on a side note, you said that your policy is that in Canon character vs Canon character debates you use Canon and Legends; in Canon vs Legends characters you use Legends because it would be unfair for the Canon character, and according to you, you could simply say the Legends character doesn’t exist in Canon, so Canon can’t be mixed in; and in Legends vs Legends debates you use Legends only obviously. I have screenshots for all of these claims if you require evidence btw.
So I am curious: In, for example, Dooku vs Revan, because Revan is a Legends only character, you wouldn’t use Canon at all for Dooku for the reasons stated above. Would you still accuse the Dooku debater of “cherry-picking” evidence if he tried to argue for Yooku scaling and ignore Canon in a debate where his opponent is a Legends only character and would get erased if Canon was brought up, according to your own word? You said when asked about Vader vs Revan that Rebels couldn’t be used to argue limitations upon Vader because it’s Canon, so why am I suddenly a cherry-picking, intellectually dishonest cunt for not using Canon when debating in the mindset that my opponent is a Legends only character and thus only using Legends (which is the only thing I’ll ever do as I don’t care for Disney’s shit, and is also the rule we agreed to in the beginning)? Are you admitting that you yourself are a filthy cherry-picker, too, when you debate Legends only character against Canon ones, like you did here? According to you ignoring Canon is an “open concession,” so are you conceding to Ant here, or what? From the looks of it I’d say no (“If you want to debate Plagueis without needing to have him retconned to succeed, let me know” – You to Ant), but then why are you saying it’s an open concession on my part if I do the exact same thing as you (“but if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know” – me to you, a couple of posts back)? Am I detecting the stench of double standards here? Is ILS a hypocrite? You tell me.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Again, not denying that there is a significant cap between Sidious and Dooku, but what you presented is not evidence for the idea that the gap is vast enough to accommodate a ragdoll.
And no, I don’t have other evidence than the quotes, but is that a problem? I have proven Yoda needed his lightsaber in his fight with Dooku. I have proven Yoda tried to kill Dooku. I have proven that TK dominating his enemies is part of Yoda’s character. If dominating his enemies is part of Yoda’s character, and Yoda tried to kill Dooku, then he would surely have just ragdolled him and snapped his neck? But if Yoda needed his lightsaber, then obviously he can’t just stomp him with TK. Is there something illogical with that conclusion? Why is that not proof enough that Dooku is more powerful than the duo of Savage and Maul? What else do you want?
Addressed. And again, is that a problem?
Erm, you said:
“ Anyway... I think I'm being a little generous here. Let's just go straight to the evidence and look at this practically. A Force user's command of the Force is the core factor in how the fight will play out. It factors into both TK and dueling.
In terms of both TK and dueling, there are numerous quotes suggesting that Sidious toyed with the Maul brothers (I believe you're familiar with them). So, whether they're attacking him with lightsabers or the Force, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, right?
Let's compare that to how a rookie Savage and Ventress are described as matching up to Dooku:
And there's others describing Dooku as too powerful for them to beat/was powerful enough to escape. So, from what we can tell, Dooku "barely" had "the edge" over their combined might.
Going by this description, if Dooku was faced with Darth Maul (a clearly superior combatant to Ventress) and a much more experienced and well trained Savage, his defeat would be certain.
You make the excuse that "if it was just a Force fight" - but it is a Force fight. Their command of the Force manifests not just in their TK, but in their dueling skill, and all parties here have demonstrated an interest in training their dueling skill as best as they can.
The difference between Sidious and Dooku is that, when he's fighting Maul and Savage, it doesn't matter what category we're discussing - he will dominate.
Dooku, on the other hand, would surely lose a lightsaber contest not by merit of a skill or physical deficiency (Sidious is an old midget with less lightsaber experience than Dooku), but because his command of the Force isn't greater than Maul and Savage's combined. Similarly, his command of the Force regarding TK isn't greater than their's combined, and I see no evidence to suggest as much. Whatever his power with TK is, it barely saved him from Savage and Ventress, so surely it won't save him here, let alone against Sidious. ”
To which I responded:
“ You are using Canon material here, when I was only agreeing to Legends. Of course in Canon Dooku would be casually flattened to a wall by Sidious or Yoda. One must simply look at how Mother Talzin, a peer of Sidious, handled Dooku and that’s obvious.
But if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know.
It didn’t save him against Ventress and Savage, because he didn’t even use it there. Other than that, I don’t see your point here. Dooku has multiple quotes suggesting he was powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by Yoda. That’s plenty more command of the Force and TK power than Maul and Savage combined. ”
I addressed all your key points here. Dooku barely having the edge against Ventress and Savage isn’t a thing because that source is Canon, not Legends. Dooku’s TK barely saving him from Savage and Ventress isn’t a thing because he never used it in the first place against them. Dooku has more command of the Force than Savage and Maul because wasn’t ragdolled by Yoda and also because he managed to hold off Yoda for 40 seconds and still had his saber in hand in the end, whereas Maul didn’t last 5 seconds against an all-out Sidious and was speedblitzed and disarmed instantly, so his command translates to both Force power and dueling (I guess I also should’ve mentioned that, so if that’s what you’re upset about, fair enough).
No, I am not admitting that because I can still argue Dooku wasn’t resisting there, which I believe he wasn’t. Sure, there is no quote outright stating he wasn’t resisting, but neither is there a quote stating he was, so we are left with subjective interpretations of the scene, each just as valid as the next. Except that the notion of Dooku resisting is not as valid, because of the quotes stating Yoda couldn’t ragdoll Dooku. A subjective interpretation cannot contradict and is automatically overruled by an objective one. The notion of Dooku resisting contradicts the notion of Yoda not being able to ragdoll Dooku – and seeing as how the former is baseless speculation, we can dismiss it in favor of the interpretation that aligns itself perfectly with established factual quotes, that Dooku wasn’t resisting Sidious and therefore Sidious wasn’t breaking through Dooku’s active Force shield.
Yes, you are right, and your point is…? None of that was my reasoning for Yoda not ragdolling Dooku. My reasoning was that there are quotes stating he can’t. This seems like a strawman fallacy.
I have given my reasons. You’re the one who’s grasping at straws by trying to enforce this notion of “Legends doesn’t exist without Canon” when the evidence doesn’t suit you, even though we agreed in the beginning that we wouldn’t use Canon. You’re the one who’s intellectually dishonest by trying to shift the rules instead of playing by them. You’re the one who cherry picks evidence, as shown in the debate with Ant you ignored Canon when it didn’t suit your needs but here you try to enforce it when it does suit your needs, also displaying double standards and hypocrisy by going against your own debating paradigm that you just established a day ago on Hangouts (I have screenshots to prove this), that being even further evidence of your intellectual dishonesty. Don’t ****ing accuse other people of the same shit that you’re pulling and then acting innocent.
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*sigh* Sorry, I just got pissed at you and needed to let off some steam. I was expecting and hoping this wouldn’t devolve into a flame war like all the other Yooku debates with Sinious and DMB have, but it seems I was wrong. I hope we can still remain friends though.
Sep 6th, 2017 06:41 PM
R, IIRC he perceived Sidious as a black hole in the Force during RotS, and Sidious ragdolling the Maul brothers, and probably more shit I can't remember. You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul or Savage outside of your insistence on these summary quotes of the AotC fight meaning what you'd like them to mean.
