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Top 10 Most Powerful Sith
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Darth Sidious
2. Knightfall Vader
3-10. Who cares




I like this ranking.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and since I know you love them so much, was on a DS nexus as well.




Lmao

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 05:14 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
I think a vastly hindered Mace being near-equal to Vastor proves he is > Vastor on even ground, lmfao.

You're assuming the vastness of his hindrance. given Mace himself believes Vastor to be more powerful on even ground, I'm not seeing why we should dismiss that.

Additionally, when we look at the fight, Mace's contention with Vastor was largely dependent on superior skill rather than superior power.

And I'll trust Mace's own belief regarding his abilities in combat over yours.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 19th, 2017 at 05:20 AM

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 05:15 AM
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Ursumeles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're assuming the vastness of his hindrance. given Mace himself believes Vastor to be more powerful on even ground, I'm not seeing why we should dismiss that.

Additionally, when we look at the fight, Mace's contention with Vastor was largely dependent on superior skill rather than superior power.

And I'll trust Mace's own belief regarding his abilities in combat over yours.

Lmao lol. He was sick, heavily injured, exhausted and on a darkside nexus. I mean, I know that you have a pronlem with logic, but this should be obvious.


I know?

Right, that also means Vastor ~ Yoda lol. Nice to know that Cronal > Mace btw.


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 06:09 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles



I know?

Right, that also means Vastor ~ Yoda lol. Nice to know that Cronal > Mace btw. [/B]

No it doesn't, as that was a pre-prime Mace. The scaling with Vader works as that was also a pre-prime Vader.

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 06:32 AM
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Ursumeles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
No it doesn't, as that was a pre-prime Mace. .

What has that to do with my point?


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 06:53 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
What has that to do with my point?
Was your point not that Vastor being> Mace would mark him as inferior to the people you have mentioned?

If your point was that Mace relying on skill rather than power here is pointless, well no. We're discussing power here, not unarmed skill.

Your examples don't work because they assume Vastor had achieved Yoda level power at that point when the statement putting him on Yoda's scale also puts him on the same scale as Early TCW Anakin, in other words, it was referring to potential, not power.

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 07:44 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And yet Mace even explicitly states he wouldn't be a match for Vastor on his best days. That on even ground, Mace would be better>Vastor is at best something you can assume. That Vastor>Mace, as of this point in the clone wars, is directly supported by evidence.


Uhh, if we take Windu's opinion seriously, then Vastor is on the level of an Anakin or a Yoda. And if we don't take Windu seriously, all that's left is their fight, which ultimately paints Windu as (much) more impressive given the circumstances.

And how the hell is this referring to potential:

quote:
I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.

Shatterpoint


The quote is literally saying that he has (as in, currently has) power on the level of Yoda or young Skywalker. To say it's referring to potential when no such implication is made in the text just because it mentions Anakin isn't supported by evidence.


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Last edited by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ on Sep 19th, 2017 at 11:31 AM

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 11:29 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Hell, I might as well say the quote referring to Vader >> Vastor is regarding the dormant power of the Chosen One that's still inside him, (that he can't quite bring to bear, hence why it's pent up).


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 11:34 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Uhh, if we take Windu's opinion seriously, then Vastor is on the level of an Anakin or a Yoda.
Yea, given that Anakin and Yoda aren't on the same level of power at this point, I'd say it's referring to potential. Remember Anakin, even as off his season 5 TCW, self is vastly below his ROTS, Yoda level, self.

QUOTE]And if we don't take Windu seriously, all that's left is their fight, which ultimately paints Windu as (much) more impressive given the circumstances.

Yea, I'm not sure what you think the author was thinking when he had Mace admit he's less powerful, multiple times:
quote:
Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.

quote:
Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power. With each breath, he stripped away another layer of restraint and inhibition. Another layer of serenity. He had to move his inner peace out of the way to let in the joy.

quote:
"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."

quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And how the hell is this referring to potential

The quote is literally saying that he has (as in, currently has) power on the level of Yoda or young Skywalker. To say it's referring to potential when no such implication is made in the text just because it mentions Anakin isn't supported by evidence. [

We can concludes it's referencing potential because even superior versions of Anakin have been explicitly noted to be vastly below his ROTS self in terms of how much they've grown.

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 12:00 PM
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Rockydonovang
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Also Skillz, how well Mace fared isn't exclusively a product of his power in the force. Windu is a vastly more skilled unarmed fighter and hence you can't assume that him holding his own as an overall combatant translates to him having superior power. Even if you want to call BS on Mace not being able to beat him on even ground, that doesn't contradict the notion hat Vastor is more powerful which Mace has repeated more than once.

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 12:17 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, I'm not sure what you think the author was thinking when he had Mace admit he's less powerful, multiple times:

We can concludes it's referencing potential because even superior versions of Anakin have been explicitly noted to be vastly below his ROTS self in terms of how much they've grown.


Only the first two quotes you posted show that Mace thinks Vastor is immensely more powerful than him, (and, given that Mace breaks out of Vastor's force choke, was considerably faster than Vastor despite his disadvantages, I don't feel inclined to believe Vastor is much more powerful than Mace at all). Mace has a history of making some less-than-accurate statements, so I don't see why we should take his thoughts on Vastor seriously when the actual fight contradicts it.

No, we can't. Mace is not saying that Vastor's potential rivals Yoda's potential, kek. He's literally saying that Vastor has power on the level of Yoda or Anakin. The reason Anakin is being wanked as such in this context is because he literally embodies the raw power of the Chosen One.

Ultimately, Shatterpoint in and of itself is pretty consistent if you take both of Mace's statements seriously in that:

A: Vastor is immensely more powerful than Mace at that point.
B: Vastor rivals the likes of Yoda in terms of sheer power.

If just doesn't fall in line with the notion that Vader >> Vastor. Unless of course, we assume that Vader's "pent up power" is referring to the power of the Chosen One that still existed within him that Sidious alluded to in RODV, which I have no issue with, (it's just not power he can truly wield).


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 12:34 PM
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Rockydonovang
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I'll respond to everything else when I get the chance.

But I never said anythingregarding Vastor being immensely more powerful I just said he's more powerful as of this point in Mace's career.

Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 12:37 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Well, what I'm essentially saying is that if you take Mace's statements seriously, then you also have to concede that Vastor's power rivals the likes of Yoda. If you don't take Mace's statements seriously, then we can only go off of the fight, in which case...Vastor definitely isn't more powerful than Mace.


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 12:50 PM
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godemperortrump
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Valk, Kun, Ulic




















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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 02:21 PM
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HentaiLover
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Vader and Nihilus

Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 12:44 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, what I'm essentially saying is that if you take Mace's statements seriously, then you also have to concede that Vastor's power rivals the likes of Yoda
[


it doesn't rival, it's on the scale of. There's nothing really problematic with Vastor being in Yoda's general range as a combatant.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
. If you don't take Mace's statements seriously, then we can only go off of the fight, in which case...Vastor definitely isn't more powerful than Mace. [

Like I said, not necessarily, because the main factor in Mace doing so well was his vastly greater skill, not his power.

Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 01:13 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
it doesn't rival, it's on the scale of. There's nothing really problematic with Vastor being in Yoda's general range as a combatant.

Like I said, not necessarily, because the main factor in Mace doing so well was his vastly greater skill, not his power.


Well, let's look at the dictionary definition for what scale means in this context, shall we?:

quote:
the relative size or extent of something.

Synonyms: extent, size, scope, magnitude


So what the quote is saying, is that Vastor's power is on the same extent, size, scope, and magnitude as Yoda's is. That's not general range.

And again, not really. Mace's speed was outclassing Vastor's in the fight:

quote:
Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.


quote:
Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.


And even broke out of Kar's force choke:

quote:
Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center-Vastor's point of Force contact-to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them...


And this is despite Windu being exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick, and on a DS nexus and on Vastor's home turf.

This scaling still doesn't exist. thumb up


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Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 03:08 AM
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Big Gerald
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^That passage reads like gay erotica

Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 04:50 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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"he allowed his center-Vastor's point of Force contact-to relax and ground Vastor's ***** back into the jungle around them..."

-

"Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides."

-

"Well, let's look at the dictionary definition for what scale means in this context, shall we?"

-

"So what the quote is saying, is that Vastor's ***** is on the same extent, size, scope, and magnitude as Yoda's"

-

With two of those having cum directly from Skillz.


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Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 05:19 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
]Well, let's look at the dictionary definition for what scale means in this context, shall we?:



So what the quote is saying, is that Vastor's power is on the same extent, size, scope, and magnitude as Yoda's is. That's not general range.

What? None of the words your definition mentions are synonous with rivalling someone. Just because someone is in the same order of magnitude, or in someone else's scope does not imply they're a rival of someone.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And again, not really. Mace's speed was outclassing Vastor's in the fight:

You're cherry picking moments where Vastor did well, while ignoring where the two combatants stood after a result of the blows they landed or didn't land.

Here's the entirety of what Mace throws at Vastor in the portion of the fight you quoted from:
But what he fell upon was Mace's fist, driven upward into his solar plexus by the combined power of the Force and nearly fifty years of Jedi combat training. Mace's hand sank in to the wrist, and Vastor's fighting snarl became an agonized struggle for breath. Mace used the Force to hurl him off and send him tumbling through the air to slam into the flank of an agitated akk dog. Eyes glazing, half stunned, the lor pelek slid bonelessly down the akk's armored ribs, and staggered as his feet skidded over gnarled roots.
Before he could find his balance, Mace was on him. "Impressed yet?"
Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vastor still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.
Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.[/Quote]

Here's the result:
quote:
An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

^^^^^ If what you quoted was supposed to potray Mace favorably compared to Vastor, then we wouldn't get Vastor getting stronger rather than being severely weakened or injured as a result.

With that in mind, let's look at the end of the fight and the actual outcome.
Mace throws everything he has at Vastor:
quote:

Mace dizzily tried to pull himself up to his hands and knees; Vastor was still down, his hands clawing weakly at Mace's flanks. Mace pushed him off and made it to his knees. Vastor rolled onto his side, found a tree trunk, and pulled himself up it, leaning on it drunkenly.
Though Mace couldn't breathe—could barely see through the black-and-red haze inside his head—he could draw upon the Force to throw himself upright, and he lunged at Vastor, whirling, hands clasped together to deliver every erg of power at his command into one last thundering punch that lifted Vastor bodily off the ground, flipped him over backward, and dropped him on the back of his neck. Mace swayed, almost out on his feet. The jungle hazed in and out of focus. All he could clearly see was the lor pelek climbing to his feet.

The result?
quote:
Vastor was smiling.
Is that the best you have?
"I'm just—" Mace gasped for breath. His arms came up slowly; each one felt like it was made out of collapsium. "Just getting started—"
One of those open-handed slaps flashed out of the darkness; the next thing of which Mace was aware was a bell-like ringing in his ears, and the grip of Vastor's huge hand around his neck, holding him up off the jungle floor.
Mace's eyelids fluttered open. Vastor's blood-smeared grin was the only thing in the world.
Vastor growled, How many arms do you see?
Mace didn't answer.
He certainly didn't see the one attached to the hand that snuffed the world like a blown-out candle.

So despite landing the vast majority of the blows throughout the fight, we have Mace having completely wasted all his strength while Vastor was simply smiling with no real indication that he was near his limit. In terms of power, I'm not really seeing where they were depicted as close. This is despite Mace repeatedly gaining a significant advantage over Vastor purely by virtue of his skill:
quote:
Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor pelek's swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder—which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's counterhook. Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides.


quote:
But what he fell upon was Mace's fist, driven upward into his solar plexus by the combined power of the Force and nearly fifty years of Jedi combat training. Mace's hand sank in to the wrist, and Vastor's fighting snarl became an agonized struggle for breath.


In fact, Mace confirms that he was banking on his skill against Vastor's power:
quote:
Night had deepened upon the jungle, and around them glowvines began to pulse faintly. To use Vaapad now, out here, was incredibly dangerous—almost as dangerous as not using Vaapad. The ultimate answer for power is skill.

This fight doesn't strike me as one where Mace was near-matching Vastor's raw power.

Rather as one where Mace was using and throwing everything he had and doing so more skillfully than Vastor, but Vastor was just too powerful for Mace to overcome, despite being a much rawer and unskilled package.

That fighting on even ground would suddenly allow Mace to overpower Vastor is an assumption, one that the author has Mace repeatedly deny.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
.And even broke out of Kar's force choke:


Yea, when Vastor's arms were still recovering from his arms being shut down via Mace hitting his nerves and he was only able to "manage" lifting one of them:
quote:
Vastor's face tightened. Strength must have been returning to his nerve-punched arms already, he managed to raise one and gesture as though throwing a stone

Additionally, There's no mention of Vastor choking Mace at this point, just that he was gripping him.

Vastor's arms return to full strength after choking Mace:
quote:
And Vastor's Force grip seized him again. Vastor was on his feet now, and his arms didn't seem hurt at all.


Coincidentally, when Vastor tries to choke Mace now, Mace doesn't try resisting:
quote:
Instead of resisting or grounding the power of Vastor's Force grip, Mace added his own strength to it. The speed of his flight suddenly doubled


quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This scaling still doesn't exist. thumb up


Lets recap what we have for Vastor being more powerful than Mace as of their fight:

-> Mace's won repeated admission that Vastor is more powerful regardless of circumstances

-> Mace losing, exhausting his reserves completely despite repeatedly abusing his much greater unarmed skill and landing the vast majority of the hits in the fight.

-> Mace deciding to bank on his skill to try and answer Vastor's power

What we have against the notion:

-> Mace was significantly hindered

-> Mace managed to avoid being dominated by a force user who at this point could only manage to move one of his arms.

The evidence pro is much more definitive and clear cut, the evidence con doesn't really prove much without contradicted assumption.

Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 05:31 AM
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