You're assuming the vastness of his hindrance. given Mace himself believes Vastor to be more powerful on even ground, I'm not seeing why we should dismiss that.
Additionally, when we look at the fight, Mace's contention with Vastor was largely dependent on superior skill rather than superior power.
And I'll trust Mace's own belief regarding his abilities in combat over yours.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 19th, 2017 at 05:20 AM
Lmao lol. He was sick, heavily injured, exhausted and on a darkside nexus. I mean, I know that you have a pronlem with logic, but this should be obvious.
I know?
Right, that also means Vastor ~ Yoda lol. Nice to know that Cronal > Mace btw.
Was your point not that Vastor being> Mace would mark him as inferior to the people you have mentioned?
If your point was that Mace relying on skill rather than power here is pointless, well no. We're discussing power here, not unarmed skill.
Your examples don't work because they assume Vastor had achieved Yoda level power at that point when the statement putting him on Yoda's scale also puts him on the same scale as Early TCW Anakin, in other words, it was referring to potential, not power.
Uhh, if we take Windu's opinion seriously, then Vastor is on the level of an Anakin or a Yoda. And if we don't take Windu seriously, all that's left is their fight, which ultimately paints Windu as (much) more impressive given the circumstances.
And how the hell is this referring to potential:
The quote is literally saying that he has (as in, currently has) power on the level of Yoda or young Skywalker. To say it's referring to potential when no such implication is made in the text just because it mentions Anakin isn't supported by evidence.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Last edited by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ on Sep 19th, 2017 at 11:31 AM
Hell, I might as well say the quote referring to Vader >> Vastor is regarding the dormant power of the Chosen One that's still inside him, (that he can't quite bring to bear, hence why it's pent up).
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Yea, I'm not sure what you think the author was thinking when he had Mace admit he's less powerful, multiple times:
We can concludes it's referencing potential because even superior versions of Anakin have been explicitly noted to be vastly below his ROTS self in terms of how much they've grown.
Also Skillz, how well Mace fared isn't exclusively a product of his power in the force. Windu is a vastly more skilled unarmed fighter and hence you can't assume that him holding his own as an overall combatant translates to him having superior power. Even if you want to call BS on Mace not being able to beat him on even ground, that doesn't contradict the notion hat Vastor is more powerful which Mace has repeated more than once.
Only the first two quotes you posted show that Mace thinks Vastor is immensely more powerful than him, (and, given that Mace breaks out of Vastor's force choke, was considerably faster than Vastor despite his disadvantages, I don't feel inclined to believe Vastor is much more powerful than Mace at all). Mace has a history of making some less-than-accurate statements, so I don't see why we should take his thoughts on Vastor seriously when the actual fight contradicts it.
No, we can't. Mace is not saying that Vastor's potential rivals Yoda's potential, kek. He's literally saying that Vastor has power on the level of Yoda or Anakin. The reason Anakin is being wanked as such in this context is because he literally embodies the raw power of the Chosen One.
Ultimately, Shatterpoint in and of itself is pretty consistent if you take both of Mace's statements seriously in that:
A: Vastor is immensely more powerful than Mace at that point.
B: Vastor rivals the likes of Yoda in terms of sheer power.
If just doesn't fall in line with the notion that Vader >> Vastor. Unless of course, we assume that Vader's "pent up power" is referring to the power of the Chosen One that still existed within him that Sidious alluded to in RODV, which I have no issue with, (it's just not power he can truly wield).
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Well, what I'm essentially saying is that if you take Mace's statements seriously, then you also have to concede that Vastor's power rivals the likes of Yoda. If you don't take Mace's statements seriously, then we can only go off of the fight, in which case...Vastor definitely isn't more powerful than Mace.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
What? None of the words your definition mentions are synonous with rivalling someone. Just because someone is in the same order of magnitude, or in someone else's scope does not imply they're a rival of someone.
You're cherry picking moments where Vastor did well, while ignoring where the two combatants stood after a result of the blows they landed or didn't land.
Here's the entirety of what Mace throws at Vastor in the portion of the fight you quoted from:
But what he fell upon was Mace's fist, driven upward into his solar plexus by the combined power of the Force and nearly fifty years of Jedi combat training. Mace's hand sank in to the wrist, and Vastor's fighting snarl became an agonized struggle for breath. Mace used the Force to hurl him off and send him tumbling through the air to slam into the flank of an agitated akk dog. Eyes glazing, half stunned, the lor pelek slid bonelessly down the akk's armored ribs, and staggered as his feet skidded over gnarled roots.
Before he could find his balance, Mace was on him. "Impressed yet?"
Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vastor still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.
Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.[/Quote]
Here's the result:
^^^^^ If what you quoted was supposed to potray Mace favorably compared to Vastor, then we wouldn't get Vastor getting stronger rather than being severely weakened or injured as a result.
With that in mind, let's look at the end of the fight and the actual outcome.
Mace throws everything he has at Vastor:
The result?
So despite landing the vast majority of the blows throughout the fight, we have Mace having completely wasted all his strength while Vastor was simply smiling with no real indication that he was near his limit. In terms of power, I'm not really seeing where they were depicted as close. This is despite Mace repeatedly gaining a significant advantage over Vastor purely by virtue of his skill:
In fact, Mace confirms that he was banking on his skill against Vastor's power:
This fight doesn't strike me as one where Mace was near-matching Vastor's raw power.
Rather as one where Mace was using and throwing everything he had and doing so more skillfully than Vastor, but Vastor was just too powerful for Mace to overcome, despite being a much rawer and unskilled package.
That fighting on even ground would suddenly allow Mace to overpower Vastor is an assumption, one that the author has Mace repeatedly deny.
Yea, when Vastor's arms were still recovering from his arms being shut down via Mace hitting his nerves and he was only able to "manage" lifting one of them:
Additionally, There's no mention of Vastor choking Mace at this point, just that he was gripping him.
Vastor's arms return to full strength after choking Mace:
Coincidentally, when Vastor tries to choke Mace now, Mace doesn't try resisting:
Lets recap what we have for Vastor being more powerful than Mace as of their fight:
-> Mace's won repeated admission that Vastor is more powerful regardless of circumstances
-> Mace losing, exhausting his reserves completely despite repeatedly abusing his much greater unarmed skill and landing the vast majority of the hits in the fight.
-> Mace deciding to bank on his skill to try and answer Vastor's power
What we have against the notion:
-> Mace was significantly hindered
-> Mace managed to avoid being dominated by a force user who at this point could only manage to move one of his arms.
The evidence pro is much more definitive and clear cut, the evidence con doesn't really prove much without contradicted assumption.