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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Mace and the Invisible Hand


Mace and the Invisible Hand
Started by: DarthAnt66

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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Syn, no offense, but at this point you're being really ****ing annoying and outright retarded.

No, the first poll did not state that in the original opening, nor did I ever backtrack from that stance.

Your second version of the thread is the same as before, unless you're making the distinction be from "fully" to "nearly."

If so, I checked all my posts and found nothing states "fully." You, once again, read me wrong.

FWI, whatever you took for "fully" or "nearly fully" was just casual writing on my part. I wasn't trying to slip in a secret concession, it was just indifferent to the matter.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 27th, 2017 at 05:27 AM

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:23 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
Senior Member

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Ditto man.

Doesn't state what? Your claims? I don't need to. You stated them for me. These polls were made to see whether people agree with those claims or not.

I did make the distinction.

(please log in to view the image)

Read more carefully in the future.

Already addressed this. Reset generally refers to setting things back to their former state. You did indeed claim Dooku "reset" his energy reserves.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:30 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:35 AM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
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does this have a point

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:36 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Yes. Ant claiming he didn't do something he actually did in an effort to make me look stupid.

Me showing he did in fact do it.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:37 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
does this have a point

A good question.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:39 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes. Ant claiming he didn't do something he actually did in an effort to make me look stupid.

Me showing he did in fact do it.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:40 AM
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NewGuy01
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what if i told you that this is making you look more stupid than whatever silly mic drop ant was going for

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:41 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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I'd believe you but would have to stick to my morale high ground and continue. :>


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Last edited by UCanShootMyNova on Sep 27th, 2017 at 05:46 AM

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:42 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
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This is my last post on the matter.

You were using quotes from Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization by Matthew Stover to argue a point about whether or not Mace Windu was exhausted in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith video-game. Specifically, you were using quotes pertaining to Dooku's exhaustion and Force reserves. I have no clue why you brought up the quotes or how it related to your argument, but I was amused by the fact that, within the adult novelization, it notes how Dooku instantly replenished his resources in a specific instant. (Your first poll conveys Dooku is constantly replenishing himself, thus making it false). I never stated Dooku can do this, I was arguing the stance because you were specifically using the book. In other words, I was calling you out for double-standards, not endorsing the book. I have no clue what you were thinking since your thoughts seem so mixed up, but at one point I used the term "reset" while another I used "near full," which you jumped upon as some indication of a concession. The fact such an act is so desperate aside, that was not what I was trying to convey. I used the term "reset," perhaps improperly, from the perspective of what it did to Dooku's age. The adult novelization remarks how Dooku is aging rapidly throughout the fight with Anakin Skywalker - figuratively, of course. When Dooku replenishes himself, it notes he washed his age away, so in other words, reset his age. That was what I was getting at there, not that he was fully replenished. That being said, I am indifferent on whether or not he was fully replenished or nearly replenished, so that is irrelevant to me anyway and thus, even if I did change my mind, it would not be a concession. The point of the argument was that Dooku can replenish his resources vastly and in a short amount of time as per a source you were currently using. Whether he could do it to 85% or 100% is irrelevant to me. I recognize you don't think the quote states such, so I'll outline why I think it does:

Before Dooku replenished himself, the text noted that "He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him." Later, after Anakin kicks Dooku off a balcony, it notes Dooku is so exhausted that he is unable to really even summon the Force to land on his feet. So, in other words, Dooku is in a state of exhaustion that far exceeds what was shown with Mace Windu in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith film. However, when Dooku replenishes himself, this Force exhaustion seemingly goes away. It is not referenced again and it also notes that "the weight of his years dropped away." This is important within the context because it previously noted that, "each block aged him a decade." This is figurative, of course, but represents the immense taxation on Dooku defending against Anakin. The replenishment quote stating that this age washed away means, therefore, that the taxation on Dooku washed away, for age is being used as a way to express the amount of pressure Anakin put on Dooku. Overall, though, Dooku got from being unable to land on his feat because he was so so messed up to being able to fully continue his fight with Anakin without any note of his previous taxation that I can recall.

Therefore, it stands to reason that Mace Windu, who is in far better shape than Anakin Skywalker, can likewise replenish himself to recover akin to how Dooku did, if we're using the adult novelization, which you were.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 27th, 2017 at 06:01 AM

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 05:49 AM
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Rockydonovang
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Stamina isn't even relevant to the authorial intent of the game here,

If there's something to be disputed, it would be the weight of the authorial intent of a non canon video game, not whether Mace was exhausted.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 06:04 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
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thumb up tell that to Syn tho


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 06:04 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Stamina isn't even relevant to the authorial intent of the game here,

If there's something to be disputed, it would be the weight of the authorial intent of a non canon video game, not whether Mace was exhausted.


It's relevant when there's no authorial intent given, which ( from what I've seen so far ) is the case here.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 06:19 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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You were using quotes from Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization by Matthew Stover to argue a point about whether or not Mace Windu was exhausted in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith video-game. Specifically, you were using quotes pertaining to Dooku's exhaustion and Force reserves. I have no clue why you brought up the quotes or how it related to your argument,

You don't believe the basic function of utilizing Force energy causing you to lose that energy applies to the RotS video game?

but I was amused by the fact that, within the adult novelization, it notes how Dooku instantly replenished his resources in a specific instant. (Your first poll conveys Dooku is constantly replenishing himself, thus making it false).

That's your interpretation of the text. And my first poll does no such thing. It asserts that you asserted that Dooku was able to fully replenish himself in a specific moment. This was based on your claim that Dooku "reset" himself.

I never stated Dooku can do this

I was arguing the stance

I hope you see where confusion could arise from applying such a tactic...

In other words, I was calling you out for double-standards, not endorsing the book.

How was I applying double standards?

I have no clue what you were thinking since your thoughts seem so mixed up, but at one point I used the term "reset" while another I used "near full," which you jumped upon as some indication of a concession.

Reset generally means to set something back to its original state, so when you claimed Dooku could replenish/reset himself, this lead me to believe you thought Dooku could fully replenish his Force reserve in a moment's notice.

The fact such an act is so desperate aside, that was not what I was trying to convey.

Ant, you have to realize the absolute hypocrisy of such a statement. You literally say the phrase "concession accepted" jokingly ( or not ) all the time as I was doing here. I said it for heightened irony since it's become somewhat of a catch phrase for you ( or at least was a very common part of your vocabulary in the recent past ). The point was, you actively claimed that you believed Dooku and Mace could replenish their Force reserves to a point that any gap between their peaks and replenished points would be negligible and then you later backtracked and said that you do not believe that in the second poll thread. Now, I don't know whether you did that out of confusion or for some other reason, but I believed it to be the perfect moment to apply your own brand of sardonic humor. Capiche?

I used the term "reset," perhaps improperly, from the perspective of what it did to Dooku's age.

Considering we were having a conversation about Dooku refilling his energy reserves, yeah, I'd say it was a pretty improper usage of the word.

The adult novelization remarks how Dooku is aging rapidly throughout the fight with Anakin Skywalker - figuratively, of course. When Dooku replenishes himself, it notes he washed his age away, so in other words, reset his age.

Exactly. He's being physically drained from Anakin's assault. He uses the Force to physically replenish himself and wash away his weariness. Not pull Force energy from nowhere.

That was what I was getting at there, not that he was fully replenished.

Honestly, I'm highly skeptical of that given the context of our conversation but because of our friendship, I'll believe you. This is why the second poll was made.

That being said, I am indifferent on whether or not he was fully replenished or nearly replenished, so that is irrelevant to me anyway and thus, even if I did change my mind, it would not be a concession.

The "concession" was you contradicting yourself regarding Mace/Dooku being able to "nearly" replenish themselves.

The point of the argument was that Dooku can replenish his resources vastly and in a short amount of time as per a source you were currently using.

Which is the entire crux of the discussion and point of these polls. I disagree with your interpretation.

Whether he could do it to 85% or 100% is irrelevant to me. I recognize you don't think the quote states such, so I'll outline why I think it does: Before Dooku replenished himself, the text noted that "He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him." Later, after Anakin kicks Dooku off a balcony, it notes Dooku is so exhausted that he is unable to really even summon the Force to land on his feet. So, in other words, Dooku is in a state of exhaustion that far exceeds what was shown with Mace Windu in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith film.

I'm sorry, but I have to point out that this is not the case. Even as Dooku is being described to be in this semi conscious state we see none of that in the movie. He appears to be perfectly fine if on the defensive against Anakin. I.E. he's not shown to be any worse off then Mace is. If Mace was suffering from the same sort of fatigue as Dooku we wouldn't know it.

However, when Dooku replenishes himself, this Force exhaustion seemingly goes away. It is not referenced again and it also notes that "the weight of his years dropped away." This is important within the context because it previously noted that, "each block aged him a decade." This is figurative, of course, but represents the immense taxation on Dooku defending against Anakin. The replenishment quote stating that this age washed away means, therefore, that the taxation on Dooku washed away, for age is being used as a way to express the amount of pressure Anakin put on Dooku. Overall, though, Dooku got from being unable to land on his feat because he was so so messed up to being able to fully continue his fight with Anakin without any note of his previous taxation that I can recall.

Because Anakin is no longer pressing him to the same degree he was earlier in the fight. It's not that he's suddenly regaining energy he'd already used, he's simply washing away his tiredness by drawing further on whatever Force energy he has left available to him.

Therefore, it stands to reason that Mace Windu, who is in far better shape than Anakin Skywalker, can likewise replenish himself to recover akin to how Dooku did.

Ignoring the idea of Mace replenishing himself, what do you mean by Windu being in far better shape then Anakin?


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 06:19 AM
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Greysentinel365
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I liken what Dooku did to this:

You run a marathon. It's exhausting, you're left a panting mess as you cross the finish line. You take 15 minutes, catch your breath, have a drink of water and suddenly you feel as though you could run again.

So you start running and the refreshed feeling lasts about 15 secs before the deeper exhaustion from the marathon hits you again.

IMO Dooku may have partially refreshed himself by taking in a fresh reserve of force energy. But the cumulative effect of his exhaustion was still there and played a role later.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 07:42 AM
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godemperortrump
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Irrelevant, boring, useless topic for debate.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 07:48 AM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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I just remembered the ROTS Novel stated Mace and Palpatine's Saber fight could have carried on indefinitely with no sign of fatigue on either side.

It seems only the Lightning weakened Mace, which doesn't happen in the game's version of events.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 08:13 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Reading through Syn's response, I realized he was unaware Force-users can draw from the area around them for power.



I'll respond, but sadly I'll have to waste most of my time explaining fundamentals than partaking in a stimulating debate.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 11:04 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Greysentinel365
I liken what Dooku did to this:

You run a marathon. It's exhausting, you're left a panting mess as you cross the finish line. You take 15 minutes, catch your breath, have a drink of water and suddenly you feel as though you could run again.

So you start running and the refreshed feeling lasts about 15 secs before the deeper exhaustion from the marathon hits you again.

IMO Dooku may have partially refreshed himself by taking in a fresh reserve of force energy. But the cumulative effect of his exhaustion was still there and played a role later.


Except there's no reference to the "deeper exhaustion" in the text, nor is this exactly the same situation as physical fatigue.

Dooku is teetering on unconsciousness because he has used up so much of his Force reserves - not because he is physically tired.

Thus, basic functions such as passive Force sense, augmention, Lesser Force shields, etc. are beginning to not work properly.

Physical weariness, however, is going to be a result of this loss in power, since Dooku uses the Force to booster himself far beyond an eighty-year old.

Dooku then calls upon the energy around himself and uses it to rejuvenate himself, giving him sustenance to the point his Force fatigue is gone.

Given the fatigue is gone and there is no mention of it later on, clearly he replenished himself to a point where much-to-all of his Force reserves returned.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 27th, 2017 at 11:20 AM

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 11:15 AM
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Greysentinel365
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except there's no reference to the "deeper exhaustion" in the text, nor is this exactly the same situation as physical fatigue.

Dooku is teetering on unconsciousness because he has used up so much of his Force reserves - not because he is physically tired.

Thus, basic functions such as passive Force sense, augmention, Lesser Force shields, etc. are beginning to not work properly.

Physical weariness, however, is going to be a result of this loss in power, since Dooku uses the Force to booster himself far beyond an eighty-year old.

Dooku then calls upon the energy around himself and uses it to rejuvenate himself, giving him sustenance to the point his Force fatigue is gone.

Given the fatigue is gone and there is no mention of it later on, clearly he replenished himself to a point where much-to-all of his Force reserves returned.


We don't really need one. It's consistent (at least in Legends) that cumulative strain can prevent one from using their full power.

I mean you at one point claimed that Revan cutting through all those sith on the SF made his battle with Malak all the more impressive. But if you wish to follow the logic here Revan could have paused for two seconds and been 100%. Rendering all the other fights irrelevant.

Moreover we have examples like Windu from Shatterpoint and Kenobi from AotC where even significant lulls from lesser exertions have had impact on their duels.

In Kenobi's case his fighting in the arena is credited despite having 15-20mins on a gunship to recover.

If Dooku is being pushed to the point where he's just an old man (despite statements that his baseline physicals are better than most men half his age) he's clearly not going to be bouncing back from that. Especially when his reserves were basically gone.

Old Post Sep 27th, 2017 01:17 PM
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