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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » VOTE: The Power of Anakin Skywalker


Where does OPERATION KNIGHTFALL Anakin Skywalker rank?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
KF Anakin would defeat Yoda or Darth Sidious in a fight. 6 17.65%
KF Anakin would stalemate Yoda or Darth Sidious in a fight. 3 8.82%
KF Anakin would lose to Yoda or Darth Sidious in a fight, BUT is their level. 10 29.41%
KF Anakin would lose to Yoda or Darth Sidious in a fight because he is SLIGHTLY inferior. 8 23.53%
KF Anakin would lose to Yoda or Darth Sidious in a fight because he is SIGNIFICANTLY inferior. 5 14.71%
KF Anakin would lose to Count Dooku in a fight; the Invisible Hand duel was circumstantial. 2 5.88%
Total: 34 votes 100%
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VOTE: The Power of Anakin Skywalker
Started by: DarthAnt66

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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rebel95
What about the fact that by operation Knightfall, Anakin had grown significantly in power since the Invisible Hand?
Proof?


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 04:14 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 04:37 PM
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UCanShootMyNova
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location:


 

thumb up


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 05:24 PM
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Kurk
An heroed

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: Mom's basement


 

"Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us"

Best case scenario Sheev is being 100% truthful and not exaggerating.

So Anakin is, at best, on their levels if "being more powerful" accounts for both saber and force power.

KF Anakin losing in a fight to Dooku is ridiculous when you consider the quote:
"Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful"

So just using both of those quotes,
Dooku < KF Anakin =< Yoda/Sidious

So the only real viable options to choose here are (top - bottom) 2, 3, and 4.


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 06:31 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.


Ayyy, how you been bubblenigs? I'll reply when I get home.

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 06:38 PM
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darthbane77
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States


 

Sidious>Yoda>>>>>>>>Anakin

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 07:53 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.

Anakin tapping into the darkside and learning how to focus his anger isn't at all the same as being rage amped. Given that Anakin proceeds to grow more powerful afterwards, Knightfall would be Zonakin plus.

Though, yes, I'd agree Anakin wouldn't win a majority.

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 08:01 PM
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BlueTiger1144
Member

Registered: Aug 2017
Location:


 

ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.

ILS, I felt that Ben Skywalker would be the one to get killed by Darth Krayt. Luke is simply too much of an OP, and besides, for story and authorial purposes, I probably wouldn't have a person with the potential of the Chosen One, in his prime( which presumably is after FOTJ), lose to literally any non-entity warrior. But Ben going down to Krayt in that way makes more sense. He probably would have gone down young. That is why there is no mention of him in the Legacy era comics, despite his age being enough for him to function as a grandfather to Cade, or something. Vestara would be involved in it too, and she would somehow be destroyed by Krayt as well. There is also the chance that Krayt manipulates her into killing Ben, and then destroys her.

Last edited by BlueTiger1144 on Sep 28th, 2017 at 08:23 PM

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 08:13 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ayyy, how you been bubblenigs? I'll reply when I get home.
Good man, you? Cool, can't wait to see what kinda wank you can cook up.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.

ILS, I felt that Ben Skywalker would be the one to get killed by Darth Krayt. Luke is simply too much of an OP, and besides, for story and authorial purposes, I probably wouldn't have a person with the potential of the Chosen One, in his prime( which presumably is after FOTJ), lose to literally any non-entity warrior. But Ben going down to Krayt in that way makes more sense. He probably would have gone down young. That is why there is no mention of him in the Legacy era comics, despite his age being enough for him to function as a grandfather to Cade, or something. Vestara would be involved in it too, and she would somehow be destroyed by Krayt as well. There is also the chance that Krayt manipulates her into killing Ben, and then destroys her.
Well, it's just a quote I took from someone else which I found awesome and funny. But Krayt and his lieutenants fighting Luke in a 5-6v1 scenario would be badass to watch.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 08:54 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Sinious, I'll respond to you tomorrow afternoon - busy tonight. And it looks like Sas has ILS.


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Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 09:45 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Beyond the beyond.


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.


You always butt in and say shit like this, then proceed to get one-shotted or not argue at all. I'd get it if you had a pedigree of any kind, but you're a microbe. Disrespectful. smile


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 11:14 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sinious
There is no denying that Anakin started the fight with Kenobi's support.

I'd wager everyone here watched the film, so of course, but this statement is just as pointless as, "Yoda is green," or "Palpatine is evil."

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 1

quote:
Dooku is also instructed by Sidious to specifically actualize an outcome he wants (even though Dooku doesn't know the ultimate goal). He can't just fight however he wants. He has to find a way to take Kenobi out of the picture, while also dealing with Anakin. There is stipulations to his strategizing, while the Jedi is simply trying to bring him down.


I can't tell you how many times someone has made this same argument. I don't know how it's still being made in 2017.

Yes, Dooku had a specific goal he had to achieve (i.e. take out Obi-Wan while still handling Anakin). However, Dooku abandoned that goal early in the fight:

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easilythan a new apprentice.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 2

quote:
At last, the form may not be decisive on its own, but I don't see why it shouldn't be a factor that makes the fight more one-sided.


Except it's not that Makashi is weak to Djem So - it's that Dooku's Makashi can't handle Anakin's Djem So.

In other words, Anakin is so much physically stronger than Dooku that Dooku cannot defend against Anakin's attacks.

Thus, you are effectively arguing, "well, Dooku might be able to perform better if Anakin wasn't so physically powerful."

Except Anakin is that physically powerful and that is relevant toward all of Anakin's performances, one versus Yoda included.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 3

quote:
Comparing an emotionally attached Yoda to an enraged Anakin seems like flawed thinking to me.


Oh boy.

Anakin is noted by Dooku to be mentally handicapped as Dooku teeters on unconsciousness.

On the flip side, the script is explicit that Yoda's attachment to Dooku is not preventing him from killing Dooku:

YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA
(continuing)
The end for you, Count, this is.

COUNT DOOKU
...Not yet...

COUNT DOOKU raises his arms and knocks YODA off his shoulders and then, with all his might, he uses the Force to pull on one of the cranes in the hanger.


So yes, indeed, comparing those two circumstances is flawed because neither circumstance exists.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 4

quote:
Also, the idea of the rage he gets from a permanent state of mind being equally potent as the burst of rage that was suppressed for years doesn't seem like genuine thinking to me. More like cancerous wank. Not to mention that Anakin had the motivation of saving Padme during KF. Everything he did, he did with the thought of "failure = Padme's death". To think that he'd be just as motivated in fights after Padme's safe seems bizarre, cause it suggests that Padme's life is irrelevant to dark side Anakin, even though Padme is the reason he fell to the dark side in the first place.


That's... actually irrelevant.

Anakin was dominating Dooku before his "burst of rage that was suppressed for years." Anakin as of Operation Knightfall is noted to be more powerful than, at the very least, that version. I will gladly discuss with you "Zonakin" versus "Operation Knightfall" Anakin, but let's do that after you concede to everything else since I don't want to have too many debates at once.

quote:
Assuming that this is an arena type match with no concerns for Padme, or some other circumstantial focus/rage he gets, he would lose 10 out of 10 times,


Not only have you provided no evidence toward this stance, but it directly contradicts George Lucas' own assessment of Anakin's abilities.

In other words, you're factually incorrect.

Awkward.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 5

quote:
due to being an idiot who is far from properly harnessing his powers,


Do you care to clarify this statement? Do you mean Anakin can't properly bring his abilities to bear?

"As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal."

Disposal, of course, meaning that Anakin can use that power at his wish (in contrast to potential or capped power).

Or are you arguing that Anakin's confusion over his powers affects his capacity to unleash his powers?

As of Operation Knightfall, Anakin no longer has such restrictions - he shed them in his fight on the Invisible Hand:

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

In other words, as far as I can tell, Anakin can properly harness his powers and bring them to bear in combat.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 6

quote:
and having no comparable mastery to Yoda.


Yet Obi-Wan Kenobi has stated that Anakin's mastery of the Force is just as great as Yoda's:

"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."

In this statement, the term "strong in the Force" is being used as synonymous with mastery, not raw power, as established with the text in red.

This quote is from Labyrinth of Evil, hence why Anakin does not yet have personal mastery like he does during Operation Knightfall.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 7

quote:
Against Sheev, the fight is gonna be even more one-sided.


While Yoda vs Anakin might be rather one-sided in favor toward Anakin, it seems contradictory for you to suggest Sheev would fare even worse than Yoda.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 29th, 2017 at 01:36 AM

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 01:33 AM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote:
Good man, you?


Well I was gonna say good, but right when I got home life decided to bite me in the ass, that's why this post is so late. My bad--

quote:
Cool, can't wait to see what kinda wank you can cook up.


--but now that I'm here, I'll do my best not to disappoint.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely?


It doesn’t, and I won't use the word proof, but the evidence that he can maintain his 'Invisible Hand performance' is primarily in the scene itself. Before I can elaborate, though, I’ll need to clarify why Anakin became so powerful on the Invisible Hand, since there still seems to be some misconceptions about what happened.

First off, let's take a look at what we can (hopefully) all agree is a pretty standard performance on the part of early RotS Anakin:

quote:
"Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."


From the passage above, we can surmise two things. One, that Anakin by his very nature is "gifted" with fury, to the point where he's almost Sith-like despite his best efforts. Two, that Anakin is deeply afraid of that fury, and that up until this point, Anakin has constantly held it back.

So what changed? Did his anger reach its boiling point and explode because of what Dooku did to him, or Obi-Wan, or Palpatine? No. The only thing that separated the duel on the Invisible Hand from any of Anakin's other fights was that he was given an excuse.

quote:
"But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizes that this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what he's been waiting for his whole life:

Permission."


Now, let's take a look at how the book describes "Zonakin:"

quote:
"A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now, and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too. It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
[…]
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
[…]
That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort, and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame. When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back. When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shimi Skywalker's gentle murmur, 'I knew you would come for me Anakin,' smashes it aside. His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win. He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair."


What the text describes is Anakin releasing his mental restraints, which allows him to overcome the fears that chained him down, and use the built up anger from his past traumas as a weapon. The mere act of doing so gives him focus, and makes him stronger.

The 'Invisible Hand performance' wasn't the result of any sort of extraneous circumstances, but was rather just the turning point where Anakin started to accept his inner darkness instead of fearing it. Once he crossed that line, even well after the fight, Anakin felt far more powerful than ever before:

quote:
""You've defeated Dooku," Palpatine said. "Capture Grievous and you will have dealt a wound from which the Separatists may never recover."

Anakin thought blankly: I could do it.

He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst-and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him . . . and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced."


Now, the reason Knightfall Vader is so impressive is because, with all that in mind, the moment Anakin was named Darth Vader was when he completely embraced that darkness.

quote:
"As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them-if anything, they burned hotter than before-but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.

[...]

The Sith Lord who once had been a Jedi hero called Anakin Skywalker stood, drawing himself up to his full height, but he looked not outward upon his new Master, nor upon the planet-city beyond, nor out into the galaxy that they would soon rule. He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life.

I am Darth Vader, he said within himself.

The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, and crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist.

I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart, and you-You are nothing at all.

He had become, finally, what they all called him.

The Hero With No Fear.


[...]

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . . transformation. A fatal transformation.


So as of Operation Knightfall, not only had Anakin completely unlocked his restraints and conquered his fear, clearing his mind of doubt like before, but his anger was even stronger than it was previously. In short, Knightfall Vader is literally Zonakin on steroids. Conversely, the reason he was weaker than Zonakin on Mustafar is because his anger started to fuel his fear, instead of his fear fueling his anger, which clouded his mind with doubt as he got angrier instead doing the opposite.

Knightfall > Invisible Hand > Mustafar

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: That's pretty much my line of though. Now, whether or not surpassing Zonakin makes KV stronger than Yoda or Sidious is another discussion entirely, although I’m willing to make that case too, if you’d like. Hit me up with a PM and we can chat about it at length sometime.

Last edited by NewGuy01 on Sep 29th, 2017 at 03:36 AM

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:23 AM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:42 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Anakin is God.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

It's funny because it's true.


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Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 04:07 AM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

It's funny because it's true.


Wait....

Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.

Holy shit.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 04:49 AM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

Anakin > GM Luke and DE Sidious. Let's go.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 04:51 AM
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Ursumeles
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: Outside the Universe


 

dmb will be so happy with anakin > mortakin > son


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Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 05:03 AM
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The Merchant
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location:


 

Just below Yoda and Palps cause of Palpatine saying Anakin will be more powerful than them, indicating that he's below them. But hes super close to their level.


__________________
"Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 06:55 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

there are ways to argue for yoda vs Anakin here, but trying to claim Anakin was rage amped vs dooku isn't one of them

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 07:11 AM
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