Anyway, yeah, the dude who can dent ships, has 4 arms, has rofl stomped ROTS Kenobi in h2h(The dude who took a second to get up after taking three kicks in quick succesion from the jedi-master one-shotting, Maul), and can tank city-wide explosions demolishes.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Urm. Do you people recall how Kenobi did kill Grievous?
Do I need to point out, that Obi-Wan Kenobi did bend Grievous' chest armor open with his bare hands (1:13), before shooting at the General and killing him? So that armor must be really tough when it comes to physical force - not. From the looks of it, had Kenobi be faster / more brutal, he could have ended Grievous right there by punching into that "organ bag" or ripping it out or something like that.
That aside: I seriously wonder if people here have forgotten "Shatterpoint" somehow:
"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it harder than durasteel. You can strike one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same cystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also gives it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force - no more than a gentle tap - will break it into pieces. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.
Unless you have a talent like mine.
I can see shatterpoints."
- From the Private Journals of Mace Windu (Mathew Stower: Star Wars - Shatterpoint).
I'm rather certain that Mace Windu, who can just put his fists through durasteel and is - following his own words here - capable of destroying materials harder than durasteel with a "gentle tap", will have no problems punching through armour that Obi-Wan was capable of deforming with his bare hands.
And this is still Mace Windu we are talking about. The guy does possess force-enhanced strength and speed, adding precognition, on a level where he is capable of fighting Sidious on autopilot:
"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind." - Matthew Stover: Star Wars - Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization.
Or, to give you a somewhat more straightforward example:
"Now the gunship's side-mounted laser turrets rotated to track them, and through the Force Mace felt their targeting computers lock on. The two damaged ships reached firing position, and they also locked on. They were coordinating their fire: he could not hope to dodge.[...]
Their cannons belched energy and Mace threw himself into the Force, releasing all but his intention. It was no longer Mace Windu who acted: the Force acted through him. Depa's lightsaber snapped into his left hand while his own flipped into his right.[...] The thing about a Vaapad was that you never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they moved too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's.
Ten bolts reached his blades. Two apiece went back at the damaged ships, bursting against their armor and knocking them reeling to break their target lock. The other six hammered the cockpit of the third gunship, blasting a gaping hole in its transparisteel viewport.
- Matthew Stover: Star Wars - Shatterpoint.
Emphasis mine.
So Mace moves fast enough to deflect fire from three gunboats with such precision, that he can place six laser bolts on one point of the third gunboat's viewport in order to blast a hole into it? And you think that Grievous can challenge that kind of speed. But maybe you need an actual H2H example:
"But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. [...] Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.[...] Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink." - Matthew Stover: Star Wars - Shatterpoint.
Emphasis mine.
Let me put that into perspective for you: Focusing of an eye can take between 20 and 200 milliseconds (or 0.02 - 0.2 seconds). In that time, Mace delivers six aimed hits on his target. Then he delivers another two hits before Vastor can blink (0.1 - 0.4 seconds). There is precisely nobody else here capable of matching Mace's speed and even less one that will put out as much damage as the Jedi Master in H2H combat, even though some of the participants have superhuman strength.
So the other combatants here are going to do what exactly? Mace outclasses them in both speed and strength, does have precognition and any kind of armour they may have is virtually useless against his Shatterpoint ability combined with his force-enhanced strength and speed. So while people like Grievous, Maul and Vastor may give him a run for his money (depending on how they fight), Mace will still be the last man standing in the end.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Urm. Yes we do. Do you recall the thread stipulations? (hint : you can find them in the title)
Do I need to point out, that Obi Wan Kenobi did weaken the inner joints keeping Grievous' chest armour intact with an an electro-staff, before opening it with his bare hands?
Since you've established that subverting Grievous et all requires weapons, and not just force augmentation, I'd sat it's pretty tough regarding physical force. You can clearly see that when Kenobi kicks the cyborg, and does more damage to himself than the target.
From the looks of it, had Kenobi started off the battle without access to any weapons, there would have been no headway when it came to opening up Grievous' chest - and therefore, no victory in any instance - blaster bolts or not. But even if we're being generous - and I don't see why we should be - in saying that Kenobi's brute alone was enough to create a cavity in Grevious' torso, I seriously doubt he would have allowed his organs to be ripped out, or punched (see 1:15 of that linked video). No to mention, it took several blaster shots to finally kill him, and he only died because the entirety of his organic matter was set ablaze. You want to tell me how Kenobi or Mace can produce a similar effect with Force augmentation alone?
Seriously Nai, you come in to a thread titled unarmed brawl, where it's clear the OP wishes to compare the characters physically, and start talking about how Mace will use his esoteric force techniques to win the day. You still remember that Mace still has to pour Force power into the perceived shatterpoints to make them break? So unlike Force augmentation (where he's elevating his own stats to hit harder) he's actually applying the Force in an offensive manner onto the target. And if that kind of power is allowed here, you might as well argue that Force grips and Force pushes have a place in this thread too. But seen as they don't :
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Emphasis mine.
So Grievous, with two of his mechanical arms, was not only able to challenge Mace's speed, but actually match it blow for blow in a lightsaber duel. In other words, your entire speed feat compilation for mace amounts to a big coolstroybro.
Please note, that after Mace inwardly praises Grievous' speed, he claims that his personal fighting style is the crutch that allows him an edge over the cyborg's immense physical stats. Please also consider that how fast one can hit his opponent is far less in important in a physical fight, than in a duel, where both opponents have blades that cut metal without friction. On the other hand, in a brawl the emphasis is on how much damage you can do to your opponent (strength). And in turn, how much you can receive (weight/durability). And while Mace is capable of putting B2 battle droids in their place (those mass produced in the millions) he has no business making a dent in one of the most expensive assets to the CIS, especially considering the alloys Grevious is fitted with that allow him to survive rather huge explosions - and in close proximity too. On the other hand, Grievous can simply impale Mace's skull with his mechanical claws.
Do you also want to show me where Mace does this with his Force augmented strength :
Throw Durge, who's essentially 3 meters of armour and muscle mass, with enough velocity to break several distant statues, and only have his momentum stop when hitting a model speeder - presumably made from some metal? I seriously doubt it. So let's run thought the list of advantages Grievous has against Mace :
- Comparable speed
- Comparable (or better) strength
- Is more durable, enough to survive close by explosions
- Has two extra arms
- Far greater reach and leverage
- Is heavier than Mace
- Can bend his joints in every direction - making grappling ineffective against him
- Has claws on all limbs that can pierce Mace's skull
- Can spin his entire torso indefinitely, creating an impenetrable barrier with his arms
So Mace (and the other combatants here) are going to do what exactly, Nai?
__________________
“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
Last edited by twotter on Oct 6th, 2017 at 08:19 PM
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Yes. Where is the point?
The amount of idiocy that is allowed in this place is getting out of hand.
1)
Could you please explain to me what armour does, according to your personal opinion. You see: I was under the impression, that armour is designed to protect the stuff that is on the inside from damage being inflicted from the outside. Do you agree with that idea? Because, apparently, you seem to suggest that hitting the outside of the armour will somehow cause structural damage to the inside of the armour (without damaging the outside of the armour) which would - just to let you know - mean that the armour is absolutely useless.
2)
How, pray tell, would Kenobi's attacks with an electro-staff weaken those joints. Kenobi stabs Grievous on one of his breastplates, then hits him from the side and then "electrocutes" his stomach. Where is any damage done to the "inner joints" there? Once again: To assume that Kenobi "weakened" the inner joints by hitting the outside of the armour, means the armour is useless.
Furthermore: You do realize that an electro-staff, in terms of damaging capabilities, is just a metal rod, right? And - contrary to Mace Windu's bare fists - we don't see it hammering through Grievious armour, which is crafted out of duranium much like the armour of the B2 super battledroids Mace Windu destroys with his bare hands.
3)
And how would a "damaging" of the inner joints by - essentially - pressure from the outside, help Kenobi to bend the armour outwards?
What has been established is that Kenobi does use weapons against Grievious to kill him, which is - gosh - not the same as needing them. You do realize that Grievous' cough was caused by Windu using a force attack on him? What did Kenobi not do in the last part of their fight, while he has demonstrated the ability to force push Grievous rather hard at the beginning of their confrontation? Right: Utilized force attacks against the cyborg. Neither has he used the advantage gained from opening the chest armour in that very moment (e.g. by damaging the sack containing Grievious organs).
Yet. We are not talking about Kenobi here, but about Mace Windu, who has been shown quite capable of putting his fists through droid armour during the battle on Dantooine. Armour crafted from the very same material as the armour Grievous is wearing. So common sense dictates, that Mace is going to do the same to Grievous, should he try.
There was no "headway" anyways, because it is absolutely impossible, that the attacks with the electro-stuff did weaken the armour. See above.
You mean much like he didn't allow his breastplate being bend open, which would take much more time than delivering a punch to that organ-sack? Which wouldn't matter anyway, because - unlike Obi-Wan - Mace Windu is capable of just punching through the material of Grievous' armour and I'm rather sure that the synth skin wrapped around Grievous' organs wouldn't stop that punch either.
Again: This is a total hilarious conclusion from what actually happened. If somebody damages your vital organs enough, you will die. Blaster bolts don't necessarily kill fast, provided the heat put out by them would instantly cauterize wounds, which would stop the inner bleeding. But given the rather rapid fire, I wonder why you think that Grievous could have survived even the first shot.
And, apparently, you have no clue about force augmentation. Let me just point to my favourite example in the department, when it comes down to enhanced physical strength:
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This is Yoda carrying a crate over a battlefield. You may notice that this is rather huge, especially in comparison to the 900 year old Jedi Master, who still manages to lift that thing up and carry it around. Even if this was just some wooden crate, the display of physical strength would be impressive. Yet, Yoda opens that crate and inside, is hidden the following object:
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A huge chaingun. By any means, Yoda was carrying clearly dozens of tons of material around with his force-enhanced strength. Now just imagine somebody with a comparable amount of physical strength hitting something. You'd get the power of a wrecking ball being directed at a rather small area (that the size of a fist).
But who cares about Yoda, when we have visual evidence of Mace fighting:
You may pay close attention to:
2:43 Mace just punches a droid out of the picture.
2:44 - 2:46 Mace puts dents into the droid armor
2:48 - 2:50 Mace damaging the next droid
2:51 - 2:54 Mace one-hitting several droids
2:55 - Mace kicking one leg off a droid (nice reference to Obi-Wan vs Grievous)
2:56 - Mace destroying one droid completely with a single strike of his hand
And in case you want to doubt the canon status of that incident, you may take a look at this:
At 2:14, Mace just lifts up one of the battle droids and slams it into the ground so hard that it pretty much breaks apart. Not convinced? There's more:
At 1:14, Mace is just physically overpowering a gundark, breaking free from its grip. Those things are commonly used in arena matched against rancors and usually come out on top. So?
Shatterpoints are essentially part of Mace Windu's perception, even though they may be "esoteric" for others. They aren't more special to him than precognition to your average Jedi...
Urm. You realize that you are, probably, full of shit?
Mace doesn't need to pour force energy into shatterpoints in order to exploit them. He just sees them and can "exploit" them pretty much via physical force. One example would be breaking the window of Sidious office to lure him into the open where he would move slower than before on the slippery ground in the rain. Mace can see shatterpoints like that in material, people and situations and I don't see any reason for him not to do so in a brawl.
Excuse me, dear Sir. Are you even utilizing your brain before you hit "Reply"? So using two arms with two lightsabers, Grievous can match Mace, who is utilizing one lightsaber? What does that tell you about the speed of Mace compared to the speed of Grievous? You know: To everybody capable of counting to two, it would probably suggest that Mace moves twice as fast as Grievous, given he has just half the weapons in comparison to the cyborg, but maybe such advanced math is beyond you.
Furthermore, one must love how you "overlooked" a part of your own quote: "Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place."
Emphasis mine.
So Mace was in need to divert some of his attention and force energy to just staying on the mag-lev. Resources that would keep him from boosting his own strength speed. Yet, he still kept up with Grievous, despite only using one blade against two blades used by Grievous.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Wow.
Apparently, next to your absolute lack of knowledge in terms of math, you have no grasp on physics as well. To lecture you on the first point: Speed correlates directly with momentum, which means, in short terms, the faster you can punch, the harder you can punch. D'uh.
The alloys that Grievious armour uses are - what an irony - the very same used in B2 super battle droids: duranium. And there is visual evidence that Mace can put his fists through that (and at that particular point, his Shatterpoint ability is mentioned nowhere, if you want to rule that out). So. D'uh. Mace totally shits on Grievous armour.
And while I understand that huge kaboom aka explosions must be totally impressive to you, you may want to think about the fact, that the energy in an explosion is subject to uniform distribution, which means that only a fraction of even the hugest explosion (in form of pressure and heat) could hit Grievous. In contrast to a direct physical assault, with a fist or a melee weapon, where almost all of the energy put into it is transferred to the target. Or, to express that in terms, that your pea-sized brain can comprehend: Kenobi / Mace may hit Grievous harder with a punch than an explosion would hit him with displaced air and heat.
Furthermore, I find the idea rather laughable that Grievous could deal much damage to Mace Windu, when he totally fails to do any serious damage to Kenobi, despite hitting him multiple times. Maybe those Jedi are tougher than you think?
Except: He doesn't, as is clearly demonstrated in the quote you've provided yourself and evidence in RotS.
Debateable. And going by Yoda carrying house-sized chainguns around for fun, my bet would be on the Jedi Master.
Wow. You mean he is as durable as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who had a rocket of Jango Fett and turbolaser fire from the Slave I exploding just in front of his feet in AotC, without even getting scratched by it. Impressive.
Which he would probably lose in less than ten seconds. And going with Force speed, he wouldn't be able to hit Mace anyway. So what?
Your definition of "far" seems to be a little bit off. Not a surprise considering your problems in the physics and math department.
One has to wonder why this would be an automatic "advantage" in a brawl...
Good thing that nobody will use grappling against him.
Also rather debatable, given the toughness of Jedi and his absolute inability to do anything of that sort to Kenobi.
It would be impenetrable, if Mace didn't have force speed, that would probably make that look like some slow motion stunt from the perspective of the Jedi Master. See Kenobi vs Grievous for evidence, when the cyborg is utilizing four blades against the Jedi.
Mace would probably just put a fist through his skull, before Grievous even realizes, that there is a fight going on.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Mace after his revelation regarding Sidious is more powerful and hence faster than his LOE counterpart.
On another note, Kenobi was capable of snapping a spider droid's heads with his kicks. I don't think a B1 battle droid has greater durability than a spider droid, so I'm not seeing how being able to punch through a battle droid lends itself to being able to break Grievous's armor which IIRC can tank lightsaber hits and tanked being right in the middle of an exploding ship.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Oct 15th, 2017 at 11:49 PM
Regardless of whether lightsabers are involved or not, Grievous still retains the advantage of having 4 arms he can strike with while Mace can only strike with two.
Obi Wan used a tool to loosen the jar of jam before opening it. And unlike many events described in the novel, this isn't explicitly contradicted by the film. The electrostaff simply being a - metal rod - doesn't detract from it's weaponry categorisation nor does it undermine the number of advantages it gives Kenobi. Or did you forget - while meandering primary school physics - the second part of your equation for momentum, and how the mass of an object correlates directly with it? In case you're lost, Kenobi is capable of generating several times more power with a tall metal rod, than with his bare 0.25 kg fist. This is true both respective and irrespective of force augmentation. Secondly, as the staff doesn't share Kenobi's pain receptors, he can whack Grievous with it as many times as he wants without this happening:
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Than you'll have no trouble explaining how the unarmed segment of Grievous vs Kenobi would have concluded had there been no blaster, no electrostaff and no telekinesis to aid the latter, given that it's - gosh - the only relevant part of that fight for this debate.
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So the General's duranium is fused with armorplast. So not the "very same material" used for the machines Mace beats to a pulp. Of course, the duranium alloy within his armour could also contain other elements, or be forged in a way to make it stronger than the mass produced metal used for millions of battle droids... as permitted by the term alloy. Unless you want to tell me that there aren't different types of steel and those which have varying degrees of tensile strength? And for the difference between Grievous and his army of droids.
Grievous Durability:
Droid durability:
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Grievous Durability:
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Droid durability:
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As it stands, Grevious is possibly some order of magnitude more durable than the battle droids he commands (duh) Which would certainly explain this scene right here :
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So the droids accompanying Grievous are not only blown back, but ripped apart by the destructive gust of wind. Grievous, on the other hand, doesn't just remain intact, but actually walks against the gale without having his head, legs or any other part of him blown off. Which kind-of puts a dent in the Mace >> random battledroids = Grievous scale. Making this compilation of feats :
Another one of Nai's coolstory bros
Except for this. This is what happens when Nai forgets the thread stipulations and starts arguing Mace's prowess with TK, in a battle where it's not allowed. Look up what a Force wave is.
Urm. You realise that you are, definitely full of shit?
So please explain to me how Mace is destroying Grevious armour just by touching it, without using the Force - in a manner closer to telekinesis - when every instance of the power described is performed in exactly that fashion?
Now I could go into what this premise does regarding lore and various fights in the mythos - making Obi Wan four times as fast Grevious and twice as fast as Mace - but keeping it specific to the fight in question, there are (more than) a few things you're missing. Firstly, Mace does not have to be twice as fast as Grievous to block his strikes when he can shorten the arc between parries. Secondly, he is capable of utilising subtle dodges and footwork to avoid a second blade entirely :
Mace was free to move form his spot and didn't stay in one place for very long. On the other hand, Grievous was fastened in the same place. Meaning that Mace doesn't actually have to block all of - or the majority of - Grievous strikes. For the cyborg however, the majority of his defence will have to come in the form of lightsaber parries, as it's noted that Mace was slashing at his legs - which were stationary.
Furthermore, the situation means that Grevious' legs couldn't be utilised for attacking. Mace however, was perfectly capable of using his free hand and both legs to kick, punch or tap (shatterpoint) the cyborg. Given that you think either method is an instant victory for Windu, it would increase the Jedi Master's available weapons at that point to four... while the General only had two limbs free, deciding (perhaps because it wasn't needed) to refrain from utilising his other two arms. What does that tell you about the speed of Mace compared to the speed of Grievous? For anyone capable of counting to four, it would mean that Grevious is twice as fast as Mace, given that he just has half limbs available. Yet he was still able to keep up with the Jedi Master despite being stuck in the same spot.
Mace probably did have to make a slight compromise on those powers, although I don't know how much. Regarding the thread stipulations, It probably pales in comparison to amount of Force energy required for his hand not to break against Grievous' plate armour, seen as he doesn't have a lightsaber nor shatterpoint in this fight.
You've also highlighted one of the advantages Grievous has against everyone else. His durability is effortless. His armour will retain the same level of toughness indefinitely, unlike the force users here whom have to split their attention between several pathways. That's why Jedi feats for any one category (IE : Yoda lifting heavy objects and not having to concentrate on much else) don't accurately reflect what he's capable of in a fight, because he would need some of that power/concentration to enhance his speed, precognition and peripheral senses. Meaning that Jedi feats away from combat have less relevance. Not that giving Mace Yoda's feats is of much relevance anyway. But that's another matter to discuss on another day, because there's something we're missing :
Grievous strikes as hard as anyone Mace has ever fought. That would of course include:
If you weren't aware of how well versed Yoda is in the strength department, allow me to unveil my personal favourite example :
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This is Yoda carrying a crate over a battlefield. You may notice that this is pretty massive, especially in comparison to the little green Master. Even if the crate was full of nothing but air, the display of physical strength would be impressive. Yet, Yoda opens that crate and inside is -gasp - the following object:
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A huge chain gun weighing at least dozens of tons. Now just imagine somebody with a comparable amount of physical strength hitting something. Gee... you might just get someone who can punch with the power of a wrecking ball. Or someone who can throw - with one arm - 3 meters of blaster resistant Durge a very far distance through several objects, not stopping until hitting a metal speeder (smashing it in the process).
So let's go over the advantages Grievous has:
- Comparable Speed
Oh yes, sorry. Nai-logic dictates that speed can only be measured from the amount of devices one can attack from during an instance. Grievous is twice as fast as Mace
- Better physical strength
If you say so. But going on Yoda carrying around house-sized chain guns for fun, i'd put my bet on the cyborg.
- Is more durable than anyone here
Well, I'm pretty sure the explosion Grievous faced was a little more forceful - actually capable of damaging it's surroundings. Unlike the rocket and laser fire which did precisely jack shit to the landing platform Kenobi stood on. But seen as kaboom explosions aren't particularly impressive to you, what about tanking a lightsaber hit? A feat that all Jedi would need Force deflection/Tutaminis to survive. Two powers that are probably banned in this thread as well.
- Has four clawed hands
He can stab Mace perfectly fine with all four of his limbs thank you very much. With a single stab being lethal.
- Far greater reach and leverage
Grievous' reach advantage is far greater. Especially when you consider how long his limbs are in comparison to his torso. He has the perfect fighters composition. Capable of lifting up Mace by the head with one of his legs, while the latter would probably flail about trying to put a dent in Grievous' armoured joints with his hands (and failing at that).
- Is hervier than anyone here
Nai appears to forget the equation for momentum, once agin. Specially what happens when Grievous is as fast (or faster) than Windu... and twice as heavy.
- Has claws on all limbs that can pierce Mace's skull
A concession.
So because Grievous didn't pierce kenobi's skull before the latter shot his with a blaster... he can't do it at all. Well the same standards can be applied to Grievous' fight with Mace, where the Jedi master demonstrated his inability to usel kicks, punches or shatter points to break the cyborgs body like Nai says he can. Bringing us to the next point on the table :
[/quote]Originally posted by Nai Fouled
Mace would probably just put a fist through his skull, before Grievous even realizes, that there is a fight going on.
[/quote]
Oct 1st, 2017 12:56 AM
