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"How Socialism Ruined My Country"
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Foxsteak
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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 03:35 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
^ Sorry to chime in, but that's a strange argument to make. I'm pretty sure roads/police/military etc =/= socialism, gven that they have existed in staunch capitalist countries etc.

Socialism is basically focused on the notion of centralization.

Capitalism and certain forms of socialism can coexist. Like DDM pointed out, the government collecting taxes to fund various social projects like roads, law enforcement, healthcare, military, etc. is a form of socialism and there's not a single country in the world that's not socialist to some extent or another.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 03:37 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Capitalism and certain forms of socialism can coexist. Like DDM pointed out, the government collecting taxes to fund various social projects like roads, law enforcement, healthcare, military, etc. is a form of socialism and there's not a single country in the world that's not socialist to some extent or another.
They are not classed as "socialist" though, are they?


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 03:39 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
^ Sorry to chime in, but that's a strange argument to make. I'm pretty sure roads/police/military etc =/= socialism, gven that they have existed in staunch capitalist countries etc.

Socialism is basically focused on the notion of centralization.


There's two major "groupings" of socialism and the one people confuse for everything is the Marxist Socialism.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/fr...61/man/ch06.htm

quote:
Socialism, for Marx, is a society which serves the needs of man. But, many will ask, is not that exactly what modern capitalism does? Are not our big corporations most eager to serve the needs of man? And are the big advertising companies not reconnaissance parties which, by means of great efforts, from surveys to "motivation analysis," try to find out what the needs of man are? Indeed, one can understand the concept of socialism only if one understands Marx's distinction between the true needs of man, and the synthetic, artificially produced needs of man.

...

Socialism is the abolition of human self-alienation, the return of man as a real human being. "It is the definitive resolution of the antagonism between man and nature, and between man and man. It is the true solution of the conflict between existence and essence, be tween objectification and self-affirmation, between freedom and necessity, between individual and species. It is a solution of the riddle of history and knows itself to be this solution". [98], [99] For Marx, socialism meant the social order which permits the return of man to himself, the identity between existence and essence, the overcoming of the separateness and antagonism between subject and object, the humanization of nature; it meant a world in which man is no longer a stranger among strangers, but is in his world, where he is at home.


I am for sure not talking about Marxist Socialism, but talking about the more common "Socialism." Idiots in the US combine the two definitions into one label and think all of it is "socialism." It's not.

But more about Marxist Socialism, Marx dressed up his words with pretty ideas and structures but at the essence of it, it was anti-theistic, antagonistic towards the reformation movement and the enlightenment period (where the idea of extreme individualistic liberty and freedom were seen as paramount to happiness) but not necessarily diametrically opposed to those concepts. He saw his brand of Communism in phases with the eventual outcome of man weaning themselves off the teet of religion and forming a happy utopia of communal industry (he believed it was the inevitable outcome of a society that grew through his idea of communistic maturity: religion was no longer necessary as an emotional crutch).


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 04:57 PM
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Surtur
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I'm just gonna post this quote here because I do not know where else to put it. It was a quote on one of Sargons videos, the comment was about the difference between fascists and communists lol. But I liked it.

"The fascists shot their victims so that they fell into the hole. And the communists had to drag the bodies of their victims to the hole."


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:04 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I'm just gonna post this quote here because I do not know where else to put it. It was a quote on one of Sargons videos, the comment was about the difference between fascists and communists lol. But I liked it.

"The fascists shot their victims so that they fell into the hole. And the communists had to drag the bodies of their victims to the hole."


As an alternative:


"The fascists killed each other. And the communists buried each other."



Meaning, the communists starved to death.


But in reality, it was a little of column A and B.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:09 PM
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Surtur
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So what would you say the difference is between socialism and communism? Just curious.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:11 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
So what would you say the difference is between socialism and communism? Just curious.


Socialism is government control of money, goods, and services.

Communism is communal control of goods and services (money has no point in this type of system).


As fact, there has never been a communist state in all of human history. It's always been socialistic states who called themselves communists.

That really shits on the Americans crusade against the 'commies', eh? lol


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:14 PM
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Stigma
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
There's two major "groupings" of socialism and the one people confuse for everything is the Marxist Socialism.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/fr...61/man/ch06.htm



I am for sure not talking about Marxist Socialism, but talking about the more common "Socialism." Idiots in the US combine the two definitions into one label and think all of it is "socialism." It's not.

But more about Marxist Socialism, Marx dressed up his words with pretty ideas and structures but at the essence of it, it was anti-theistic, antagonistic towards the reformation movement and the enlightenment period (where the idea of extreme individualistic liberty and freedom were seen as paramount to happiness) but not necessarily diametrically opposed to those concepts. He saw his brand of Communism in phases with the eventual outcome of man weaning themselves off the teet of religion and forming a happy utopia of communal industry (he believed it was the inevitable outcome of a society that grew through his idea of communistic maturity: religion was no longer necessary as an emotional crutch).

Absolutely. thumb up

Perhaps you know this, but Marx actually believed Socialism is a necessary first step towards Communism. Both are linked. That's why I always keep my fingers crossed for Socialists to trip on their journey stick out tongue


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:16 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
Absolutely. thumb up

Perhaps you know this, but Marx actually believed Socialism is a necessary first step towards Communism. Both are linked. That's why I always keep my fingers crossed for Socialists to trip on their journey stick out tongue


Yes, definitely. I think there are three phases to Marx' idea of "pure communism." And, actually, I'm rusty on my political science and I do not recall the middle step between 1 and 3. erm


I think Surtur remembers because I believe he reminded me of this a few months ago but I forgot...


Seizing the means of production...socializing....transitioning to communism? Nah, doesn't sound right. 1 and 2 are pretty much the same.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:18 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Socialism is government control of money, goods, and services.

Communism is communal control of goods and services (money has no point in this type of system).


As fact, there has never been a communist state in all of human history. It's always been socialistic states who called themselves communists.

That really shits on the Americans crusade against the 'commies', eh? lol


Indeed, it can be weird because you do see some people use "socialism" and "communism" interchangeably.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:18 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, it can be weird because you do see some people use "socialism" and "communism" interchangeably.


As they say, "when in Rome..." because language changes. I've pointed out before that it is necessary to clarify, like you just did, what people are referring to because, as I just pointed out, all of these "commies" are actually socialists.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:20 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
As they say, "when in Rome..." because language changes. I've pointed out before that it is necessary to clarify, like you just did, what people are referring to because, as I just pointed out, all of these "commies" are actually socialists.


I think people just like the word "commies" better when it comes to referring to them lol. Otherwise they'd be borrowing from The Outsiders with the Socs.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:22 PM
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It is true, Marxist Socialism (Communism) never actually happened, but the practice to make it happen was genocide. So..... just going to end that there.

Socialist practices in capitalist economies are good and necessary, like a safety net, so to speak, but the level of the safety net is adjustable. America has this problem that any social services is red terror cos they're morons.

Apparently, Putin is hacking dere facebook to make them like Trump who is ebull. America is dumb.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:23 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Foxsteak
Socialist practices in capitalist economies are good and necessary, like a safety net, so to speak, but the level of the safety net is adjustable. America has this problem that any social services is red terror cos they're morons.


Right, despite our differences when it comes to politics, this is one thing you and I agree on quite vehemently.

I just don't understand the idiocy whenever we talk about implementing more proper socialistic systems like healthcare.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:29 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Right, despite our differences when it comes to politics, this is one thing you and I agree on quite vehemently.

I just don't understand the idiocy whenever we talk about implementing more proper socialistic systems like healthcare.
Well, if we were to discuss healthcare like the sensible intelligent members of KMC we are, I'd tell you that I have problems with socialised medicine such as the NHS.

Idiots get put in power, immigrants from different cultures swarm in (simply a cultural difference, here not LOL DEY BLACK) and power given to politically changing governments when medicine should be a scientific business.

I like Sicko as entertainment, but Michael Moore is a ****ing hack.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:51 PM
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We'll do it for Johnny!


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 05:59 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Right, despite our differences when it comes to politics, this is one thing you and I agree on quite vehemently.

I just don't understand the idiocy whenever we talk about implementing more proper socialistic systems like healthcare.
I don't care what anybody says, I'd take the NHS over letting poor people die from a fully privatised healthcare system any day of the week
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Foxsteak
immigrants from different cultures swarm in (simply a cultural difference, here not LOL DEY BLACK)
Barely ever happens. 95% scapegoat


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there will be zero tolerance

Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 06:01 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
I don't care what anybody says, I'd take the NHS over letting poor people die from a fully privatised healthcare system any day of the week
Barely ever happens. 95% scapegoat
You ignore my talk about Sicko, but whatever, I'll address the post you made.

I've been to an NHS hospital regarding mental illness and there were complaints about Indian doctors and patients. It wasn't a big deal, but it was upsetting for people. When an Indian doctor thinks they're doing a good job and the patient can't ****ing understand what she's saying, it becomes an issue. When a patient from another country, two examples, one was from Poland and one was from India, there were tensions and issues for the patients and nurses. I believe greater restriction is needed.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 06:09 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Foxsteak
You ignore my talk about Sicko, but whatever, I'll address the post you made.

I've been to an NHS hospital regarding mental illness and there were complaints about Indian doctors and patients. It wasn't a big deal, but it was upsetting for people. When an Indian doctor thinks they're doing a good job and the patient can't ****ing understand what she's saying, it becomes an issue. When a patient from another country, two examples, one was from Poland and one was from India, there were tensions and issues for the patients and nurses. I believe greater restriction is needed.
I haven't seen Sicko.

Anyway, reducing immigration and stuff like that would solve that issue, without having to get rid of the NHS. The NHS isn't perfect by any means, particularly with mental health, I'm not saying it is. But at the end of the day, I come from a fairly poor family, and the NHS saved my dad's life twice (without putting our entire family into crushing debt that we probably wouldn't have recovered from!), so if I did anything else but support the existence of the NHS I'd be pretty stupid.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2017 06:24 PM
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