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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode I, II & III » The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader


The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader
Started by: queeq

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Ushgarak
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What you call 'half-assed crappy cover up', I call a simple declaration of the way things are.

This is how GL creatively wanted it, so I guess you'll just have to live with it.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:54 PM
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PVS
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dooku kept up with his training, obiwan didnt.
obiwan knew he no longer had to fight up to the standards of the
old order. really, what challenge was there besides vader? he could have
whooped any stormtrooper or cantina scum, but as far as vader, his plan was to be defeated so no point in training. and palps? obiwan wasnt powerful enough in his prime to defeat him, as yoda declared, so no point in training there. so he got weak...relatively.

and really queeq, the only ways for GL to preserve the mistique of vader's ability would have been to either:

-not even make the PT

-make all the jedi/sith in the PT fight slowly (booooooring)
or
-remake the OT fight scenes (*pukes on keyboard*)

sorry queeq. you're beat stick out tongue

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:55 PM
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beedubaya
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I was watching A New Hope last night and I dont think there is anything wrong with that dual honestly. Just because the swinging of the sabers is slower doesn't take away its meaning.

One of the flaws of the prequels is I think they should have been molded to fit flawlessly with the OT then George Lucas wouldn't need to make changes to the OT to make it work.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:58 PM
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Ushgarak
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Oh, I'm a big fan of the ANH duel. Very technically competent.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:59 PM
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queeq
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I agree, PVS... I'm beat by the PT. I don't know the solution either. Maybe I'm just too pissed at GL calling the Jedi in the OT cripples and old men.

I'm not saying the OT's gotten worse or anything, but I do find it hard taking Vader seriously after the PT. I mean, he's slow, sluggish, seriously handicapped, a shadow of Anakin. Heck the guy even takes about 25 years to make decent promotion in the Empire... In ANH, 20 years later he's still Tarkin's lap dog. Only in Empire he's the head honcho... I mean, that is so lame.

Well, at least the sabre fights in the OT are a lot more dramatic than those in the PT, they are technically inferior, but dramatically superior.

Still, Vader's not the man he used to be. wink


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 10:58 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
I agree, PVS... I'm beat by the PT. I don't know the solution either. Maybe I'm just too pissed at GL calling the Jedi in the OT cripples and old men.

I'm not saying the OT's gotten worse or anything, but I do find it hard taking Vader seriously after the PT. I mean, he's slow, sluggish, seriously handicapped, a shadow of Anakin. Heck the guy even takes about 25 years to make decent promotion in the Empire... In ANH, 20 years later he's still Tarkin's lap dog. Only in Empire he's the head honcho... I mean, that is so lame.

Well, at least the sabre fights in the OT are a lot more dramatic than those in the PT, they are technically inferior, but dramatically superior.

Still, Vader's not the man he used to be. wink
I've noticed this too, only never really copmrehended it.


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2005 04:36 AM
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Red Superfly
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I have to agree.

The PT has basically ret-conned Vaders character into something pathetic by having superhero Jedi's in the PT.

Han Solo, Leia, Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, almost every character in the OT had their own strength. They pale in comparison (as far as abilities go) to the superheroes of the PT.

OT had warriors, the jedi were understated druid warriors that complimented the normal "muggle" population so that normal heroes like Han, Leia, Chewy and so forth all had their own worth.

The PT comes along and makes the OT characters look like shit. I don't mean they make their CHARACTER shit, but their skills and power.

Vader, twenty years ago, was a bad ass, and always was. Now, he's a cripple who can't fight. The PT shows us that mechanics don't mean you are clumsy and rigid, by introducing General Grievous, who is nimble and fast, and makes this ret-con even harder to stomach.

Obi-Wan, twenty years ago, was a bad-ass warrior who has lost his edge. Now, he's an old man that can't put up a fight against a cripple.

Stormtroopers, twenty years ago, were soldiers, human, who at least had an interesting edge to them in that they seemed like conscripts and a real miliatary unit. Now, they are a bunch of clones with a personality deficit.

Boba Fett, twenty years ago, was the lone gunman, the man with no name, so-to-speak. Mysterious, sinister, understated bit part character who's death is easy to come to terms with given his small role. Now, he's a lame stormtrooper who is even more lame than his lame dad, and given the Fett's expanded and quite monumental role in the actual story, his death makes him look even more of a loser than he already was. And it turns out he used to be an annoying brat. Uncool.

Old Post Dec 24th, 2005 09:18 PM
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Kid Kurdy
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Obi is the greatest fighter. I am not saying he is the greatest wielder of the force, or THE smartest Jedi ever, or the fastest and so on...

But he is a great wielder of the force, he is smart, he is fast... he has a great combination of all the best qualities a Jedi should have. That's why he beat Anakin. Anakin is on paper better, but lacks the discipline.

People tend to underestimate Obi because he is such a nice person. But Vader - who actually doesn't do that much in the movies - is for a strange reason overrated. Not much, but still...


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2005 09:35 PM
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sithsaber408
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Getting back on topic here.....
I would have liked to see more of boba fett, like you know, grown up! The prequels went in a different direction than I would have liked(still love em tho).
It would have been better to take most of ep 1and2 and combine.

Start with ani at 12 or 13, it makes his being too old and screwing up later do to attachment and not enough training more believable, as well as his flying of pods and ships. Put all the trade federation and senate crap of 1 and 2 in ep1. Start with ani winning the pod race, then the jedi getting stuck on tatooine. Ani is already the hero, and helps them fix the ship. Qui gon just takes him, no bargain, no stupid race set up, no waste of 40min. end just the same, but with the seperatist movement starting.
In ep2 still have clones and love story, but way more of dooku and start the battle of geonosis in the first 40 min. have grevious introduced in the last 15 min, like in clone wars, or somethin.
In ep3 we already have govenors, star destroyers, and ties(not to mention friggin y-wings, gl dropped the ball on that one!) Show more of the rebellion, and have ani fight mace, as mentioned. Palps v.s. yoda would be like mace vs sid, with yodas saber taking lightning, no saber for palps, then a force battle. end the same


Of course, I could watch a whole movie about the sith apprentice vader who killed everybody in the control room, and suited vader hunting jedi, while we see qui-gon and get an explanation about force ghosts maybe they'll make "STAR WARS: CONNECTIONS" laughing


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Last edited by sithsaber408 on Dec 25th, 2005 at 10:57 AM

Old Post Dec 25th, 2005 10:53 AM
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Stun
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Re: The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Despite my feelings about the PT (ROTS made up for the other two), my greatest disappointment lately lies with the character of Darth Vader as we knew it from the OT. He was iconic. So iconic that the set fell very quiet during filming of ROTS when Hayden entered donned in the Vader suit. He was the ultimate bad guy, the one-not-to-be-messed-with (instead of the chosen one). He became a true icon that we all loved, menacing creature with an unexpected side to him.

But what has the PT done to our beloved Darth Vader? This is what kinda pains me. It turned him into a lame wanna-be cripple that can hardly fight... He even has trouble beating a bloody padawan learner that had a couple of months of training. Is this the greatest Jedi that ever lived?

Before the PT, before the Dark Times, we had no idea about Jedi training or how they're supposed to fight. GL gave us all of his original ideas and left usin the OT with a couple of lamo's. Poor pathetic wanna-be Jedi. The Jedi we always wanted to be as kids were OT OB1 and Luke, heck even Vader.
GL explains it all that Vader's a cripple and OB1's an old man. I find no explanation for the sudden change. Dooku looks at least as old as OB1 and is super agile with flips and salto's, Yoda's hopping and jumping about like a twelve year old (despite his age of 800+, some 25 years before his death of old age).
OB1 in the OT is only 60 old or something but now he moves like a stiff old man. And Anakin, heck I'd expect him to master his electronic body as the supertechno kid he always was, to become agile and quick. But none of that.... the PT made our hero's of look pathetic.

For me, the great and menacing Darth Vader has been reduced by the PT as a somewhat cripple old bastard that can do a fairly good Force choke... the rest is gone of our icon. That for me is the true "Tragedy of Darth Vader", as GL lovingly calls his now six-part saga.



As much as i respect your argument Queeq, i have to say i disagree with your statement. You cant tell the story of somone's downfall without emotional conflict from every day life. It made him Human for the first time - a story of how good people turn bad. I just think the whole contrast is far greater from a guy who's all evil - or so we were led to believe.


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Old Post Dec 25th, 2005 11:57 AM
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overlord
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only.
It doesn't contain any logic that Vader would have still been worse than when he was in ROTS when he finally completed his training and perfected Shienn.
And the poor arguments that the PT dueling is so incredibly good isn't convincing because it doesn't seem effective at all, making summersaults and more nonsensical stuff.

And I really do believe that Lucas' intention was that Vader was the most powerful warrior the universe had ever known who single handedly wiped out the jedi and Obi Wan was supposed to be one of the last remaining jedi due to him being one of the best even still in ANH.

Sure, Lucas might want to change all his basic idea's behind the characters of his original trilogy but he already finished the scripts and the whole movie series including his idea's a long time ago.

He might want to rewrite the whole thing and make us think that the OT warriors stunk but it's finished and I consider the original and finished story as more canon than Lucas saying that he wants to turn back time. He can wish all he wants, hell, he can even release the whole series until infinity but that doesn't mean anything to me.


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Old Post Dec 25th, 2005 04:57 PM
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MC_GG
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What really sucks is that they dont show how and why Anakin turned on the Jedi. All we see in ROTS is that Palpatine seducing him by lecturing him about Sith s**t. The main problem in ROTS is that GL couldn't expand as to why Anakin became Vader. Sure it was to save Padme but there was more to it than that.


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Old Post Dec 25th, 2005 10:28 PM
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kevy-2006
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Iím seeing a lot of criticism over the prequel trilogy in this thread, but does anyone have any opinion as to what would actually have made it better? Well after finally seeing the final act play out, hereís my take on how the prequel trilogy would have unfolded if I were making the films:

1) Iíd of jettisoned The Phantom Menace in its entirety; the first movie adds nothing to the story and is a convoluted, wasteful two hours better spent on a completely different and more interesting story idea. Iím of the mind that I could care less in seeing Anakinís beginnings as a child, which is the entire point of the first film. Make Anakin a Jedi apprentice with a lot of potential and leave it at that; no talk of virgin births, prophecies, and midichlorians or any of that crap as it just doesnít work and all comes across as silly.

Ultimately, my opinion of The Phantom Menace is that it doesnít fit in with the rest of films and hampers the prequels with unnecessary exposition. The original trilogy had immediacy to every scene that pushed those films along and moved the overall three film story arc, something the prequels lack with this false start of a film. Deleting it takes care of certain characters and plot points that play no greater part or have little relevence in the other movies.

2) In getting rid of the first film and making a few script changes, Iíd of made Attack of the Clones the first film in my prequel trilogy. Anakin is introduced in this first film as a Padawan learner to Obi-Wan Kenobi at basically the same age Luke is introduced in Star Wars and meets Padme for the first time near the beginning instead of being reunited with her. Otherwise, the film plays out close to how it actually does, except for my next pointÖ

3) No marriage at the end of Clones; the whole romance in the second film is much too rushed and ham fisted. The entire Geonosis trip should play out as a playful first date of sorts for Anakin and Padme, not a prelude to nuptials or a declaration of undying love for one another.

4) The second film in my trilogy would take place during a pivotal time in The Clone Wars. With Clones we get to see the beginning of the war and with Revenge of the Sith the end, now we get a film that takes place during the conflict (and before you all yell "But what about the animated The Clone Wars?", Iíll state my opinion that if it didnít happen in the films, as far as I am concerned, it didnít happen). Something missing in the prequels is that we keep hearing about how Anakin is this great hero of the war and all, but itís never seen on film and you never get a great sense of it. There is also room for the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin to become a deeper bond as there is a special comradery between soldiers that is born in times of war; you get a sense of it in Sith, but again you never see it develop so it loses some weight. Having a wartime picture also adds the potential to see the dark side in Anakin grow; as it stands his turn from good to evil in Revenge of the Sith feels like it takes about as much time as taking off a white hat and putting on a black oneÖa bit more build up would have been better.

5) Anakin and Padme would marry at the end of this new second film, having had time between the first two films to actually have a believable, evolving relationship before jumping headfirst into matrimony.

6) Count Dooku would return as the foreground villain in the film with Palpatine in the wings. Another missing component from the original trilogy is one bad guy who is consistent throughout the trilogy, such as Darth Vader. The prequel trilogy has a series of disposable bad guys running around, but no one who is a common thread to the films besides the shadowy and, to be quite honest, boring Darth Sidious. Count Dooku, as the elder statesman, fallen Jedi would fit this role perfectly in accordance to the structure of these films that are set in a more regal time period. And speaking of bad guys, General Grievous could have been this trilogyís Boba Fett if handled differently (i.e. not as a cowardly joke) and introduced in this new, second film.

7) Revenge of the Sith would unfold pretty much as is, though I would have extended Count Dooku's part and swapped his place with General Grievous in the film. Just like Fett in Jedi, Grievous is there for the beginning but quickly dealt with.

8) I also would have kept the scene deleted from Sith where we see the Rebel Alliance born. It seems like too important of a scene to me to cast aside and would make a nice mirror image to the Rebel planning scene in Jedi.


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Old Post Dec 25th, 2005 11:41 PM
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Hazardous
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I never got the whole OT sword fighting argument about why they are crap. I dont see them as crap (compared to PT of course they are, but as a fight in themselves, they are not crap). Vader still pulls out some good moves, he doesnt need to flip around and so on to look like he knows what he's doing.

For Obi Wan in ANH, I never looked at it as he's an old man who cant fight. To me, he looked like he could still hold ground, he just doesnt choose to. The way he looks at Luke right before making his decision to die suggests to me that the fight was never going to be another epic duel, but as a ploy to hold time for the bigger plan.

ESB - To me, this really shows Vader at his finest. This is the big bad Vader I love. Relentless with pursuing Luke, putting no effort into defending Han's shots, playing with Luke by throwing things at him with the Force, then eventually getting pissed enough to cut off his hand. Vader was on top of everything in this movie. As he should be.

ROTJ - Vader is softer, he's letting through more of his good side. He's not pissed at Luke, he's more provoking than actual fighting. Then his redemption, seeing as the movie is about him coming back, I'd expect to see Vader not being such a bad ass. Makes you feel more sorry for him having been fecked over and making so many mistakes.


Vader is still a 'dont mess with me' kinda guy. I still see him as the scary villain guy through the OT. Vader doesnt exist in PT, I dont know what you're all looking for. Its after ROTS you should be looking for Vader to shine.

Old Post Dec 26th, 2005 04:28 AM
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FistOfThe North
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Miöt
Vader is still a 'dont mess with me' kinda guy. I still see him as the scary villain guy through the OT. Vader doesnt exist in PT, I dont know what you're all looking for. Its after ROTS you should be looking for Vader to shine.


I couldn't agree anymore, Mist. The fact the some fans have labeled Vader as lame after watching the PT is still not understandable to me. Even after reading this thread.

The OT Vader you've seen, before watching the PT, is, and should be, the same OT Vader you saw when you thought he was a bad-ass.

In the OT, Vader may well have been the most ruthless person in the Galaxy. Even more ruthless than the Emperor himself. And if Anakin's past changes your view of Darth Vader for the worse, then you've yet to realize of the fact that in the future he becomes the epitome of evil and power over all. Flawed, your judgements may be if you think the past equals the future, cause it doesn't.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2005 09:27 PM
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Red Superfly
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Demarest, I agree with a lot of what you said. Grievous and Dooku were both wasted, the whole Rebellion set up could have worked if it was all planned out better, and if Phantom Menace was just scrapped altogether (because really, what was THE POINT? and why couldn't the small significant plot points of Ep I could have been incorporated into say, Episode II and use that as a start point to allow more breathing space and fleshing out of the more interesting characters - namely the ones from Episode III.).

Bah, I've said before I actually wish the prequels never existed. What I (and everyone else) imagined was way cooler than what we got, I think. I think Lucas should have just left a lot of things unsaid. Sure, the prequels explained a lot, but they also didn't explain a lot of things, (ie, the rebellion) and made some things even more confusing (fighting styles, technology, the Leia-mother ROTJ scene etc), a lot of things many fans wanted to see, such as the birth of the rebllion, were cut in favour of watching Jar Jar Binks fall over and play with himself while a fake, shitty war goes on, there's loads of useless exposition and nothing happens for the first 3rd of the new trilogy. The huge waste of time means Episode III is just cram-packed and overflowing with exposition and it feels like a checklist being ticked off. It's like Lucas went off on his own little mission, realised he had to bridge the gap, and so made a "to-do" list for the last five minutes of Episode III, and also came up with the plan of rubbishing the OT characters just so his new CGI superhero Jedi would seem legit in the Star Wars Universe. It doesn't seem naturally flowing at all. I wish he had never even botherred, really.

Polished his diamond into dust.

Last edited by Red Superfly on Dec 27th, 2005 at 05:10 PM

Old Post Dec 27th, 2005 05:05 PM
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SpyCspider
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^ very well said.


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2005 06:19 PM
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sithsaber408
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The prequels, while flawed, are still worthy additions to the fine saga that had ewoks, funky slugs, wolves and devils in bars, and "scruffy-looking nerf herders" as plot devices.

StarWars is my all time fave stuff, but even I know its limitations.

The prequels dont suck anymore than the OT.

in other words....


"Dont piss on my leg and tell me it's raining' laughing


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2005 02:16 AM
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Lightning_Count
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This has got to go down as one of the stupidest topics ever to discuss!

It's really quite simple, no really, it is......read and learn:

Anakin, healthy young jedi constantly improving skill and power = PT
Vader, 95% robot, 7ft giant made of iron = OT
Obiwan kenobi, jedi master approaching middle age = PT
OLD BEN, sluggish, aged and out of serious practice = OT

The Republic and Jedi in there 1000's (e.g. Golden F?%king Age) = PT
The Empire and few surviving Jedi (in hiding e.g. not showing off their powers and fancy skills) = OT

If you add all these things up, know one should really have to explain anything further.

In the PT, obiwan was peaking, and anakin was awesome and could've gotten better but we all know what happens to him.

In the OT, Vader is a mechanical monster but has lost serious amounts of agility and power, due to him having lost more than half his body and being fitted with all those metallic extras.
Obiwan on the other hand is simply quote "getting to old for this sort of thing", and quote "your powers are weak old man"

And if all that isn't enough, people in previous posts have mentioned.......both trilogy's were made in different F?%king decades with these annoying little things called "LIMITATIONS".....why do you think kung foo movies and sword fighting look a hundred times better in movies today than they did 20 years ago.

The Fact is, Obiwan and Vader in the OT look and fight the way they due due to all the above mentioned.

It's really amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious Sh?t!!

Old Post Dec 28th, 2005 04:40 AM
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Red Superfly
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lightning_Count


It's really amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious Sh?t!!


You've just stated the obvious, though. Everyone here already knows this.

We're complaining about the fact Lucas has ruined the "awe" factor of many of the OT characters.

If the OT had limitations, then impose those same rules on the Prequels, as opposed to ret-conning the OT with lame excuses.

Oh and before you say "the prequels are new, so they should look more visually stunning" I must ask: why? The OT have been classics for years, and the original versions are still regarded as the BEST versions. The effects and limitations is fighting choreography and visual effects didn't detract from the characters or the quality of the storytelling.

There was no need to change or re-work any of the characters already established. The only reason is that Lucas wanted to substitute good storytelling and classic characters with flashy CGI and Matrix/superhero hybrid lightsaber fights.

Limitations are not limitations at all, only in a visual sense. There is no limit on storytelling and characterisation. Thats why in twenty years time, people will still be talking about A New Hope more than any of the prequels.

Old Post Dec 29th, 2005 12:38 AM
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