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Snape not evil...
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TomBlack
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Snape not evil...

I'm not sure (though it probably has) if this has been said before but is it not kinda obvious under the surface that Snape is not evil? Firstly, look at how Dumbledore has repeatedly stated that he wholly trusts that Snape is good and is working loyaly to the order. This must be given some weight in the argument.

Secondly, (and most importantly) most of the belief that Snape is evil has sprouted from the idea that he murdered Dumbledore. So cast your minds back so that we can look at this in detail. When Harry and Dumbledore first apparate back in hogsmead, Dumbledore stresses how little time he has to cure the poison he drank in the cave, so they hurry to the castle but are caught up at the top of the tower by Malfoy and later by other deatheaters (including Snape). It is is fair to say that this delay has meant that the poison has now done irreversible damage and it may be too late to save Dumbledores life. Dumbledore pleads with Snape just before he gets killed, and I do not believe that Dumbledore was the type of character that would plead for his own life and i think you will agree with me on this. So it could be the case that Dumbledore was pleading Snape to kill him, as he was going to die anyway and so that Snape could be fully trusted by voldemort and get deeper in the Deatheater circle (something very important as a spy).

So there you go, i fully believe it and will eat the sorting hat raw if it is wrong.....


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Old Post May 1st, 2007 02:15 PM
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ADarksideJedi
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We were wrong about him not being a deatheater and yet he killed Dumbore.This could be a twist through and he could be lieing or faking it.I guess we will have to see!jm


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Old Post May 1st, 2007 02:16 PM
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Zen2nd
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Except that Snape hadn't been told that Dumbledore was poisoned. Also the fact that Snape knocked out Flitwick in his office and went straight for Dumbledore unknown that he was poisoned.

Harry never made it to tell Snape, he had been frozen by Dumbledore and kept hidden from the Death Eaters.

Though there is also the fact that Snape made the unbreakable vow, so thus if he didn't kill Dumbledore there and then, he would have dropped dead since Draco would have failed his mission.


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Old Post May 1st, 2007 09:00 PM
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Old Post May 1st, 2007 09:35 PM
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H. S. 6
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zen2nd
Except that Snape hadn't been told that Dumbledore was poisoned. Also the fact that Snape knocked out Flitwick in his office and went straight for Dumbledore unknown that he was poisoned.

Harry never made it to tell Snape, he had been frozen by Dumbledore and kept hidden from the Death Eaters.

Though there is also the fact that Snape made the unbreakable vow, so thus if he didn't kill Dumbledore there and then, he would have dropped dead since Draco would have failed his mission.


Unless he had already made an Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore...


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Old Post May 2nd, 2007 12:36 AM
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Yeah.I doubt though.


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Old Post May 2nd, 2007 12:57 AM
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ADarksideJedi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zen2nd
Except that Snape hadn't been told that Dumbledore was poisoned. Also the fact that Snape knocked out Flitwick in his office and went straight for Dumbledore unknown that he was poisoned.

Harry never made it to tell Snape, he had been frozen by Dumbledore and kept hidden from the Death Eaters.

Though there is also the fact that Snape made the unbreakable vow, so thus if he didn't kill Dumbledore there and then, he would have dropped dead since Draco would have failed his mission.


I see your point very good thinking there!jm smile


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Old Post May 2nd, 2007 02:28 AM
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one of the deeper mysteries of harry potter...

Old Post May 4th, 2007 10:43 PM
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T.Maria
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Theres a conversation that Hagrid overhears in HBP between snape and Dumbledore.
Snape tells dumbledore that hes taking things for granted, etc.

He tells harry about it, and then he tells ron and hermione...cant remember what page its on though...
But we're lead to believe that the conversation is about Snape doing his death eater duties, but i think they might be discussing what needs to be done if the worse comes to the worse.

I rekon that Dumbledore AND snape both knew what Malfoy was upto, and prior to Dumbledore's death, he's TOLD Snape to be the one to kill him (because this also spares Malfoy's life in the process at the hands of voldemort, AND from a stretch in azkaban, which i think is very telling because Malfoy will probably have a bigger role in the 7th book).

When dumbledore was begging snape to do it, i think he was begging because he knew that snape didn't want to kill him.

Just my thoughts though...feel free to ignore smile


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Old Post May 4th, 2007 11:31 PM
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Darth Macabre
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Re: Snape not evil...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by TomBlack
Firstly, look at how Dumbledore has repeatedly stated that he wholly trusts that Snape is good and is working loyaly to the order. This must be given some weight in the argument.
Why? Dumbledore isn't some almighty, all knowing wizard. Rowling has stressed in and outside of the books that Dumbledore can be wrong, and since he is such a powerful and knowledgeable wizard, his mistakes are the biggest of them all.


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Old Post May 5th, 2007 12:20 AM
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T.Maria
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Re: Re: Snape not evil...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Why? Dumbledore isn't some almighty, all knowing wizard. Rowling has stressed in and outside of the books that Dumbledore can be wrong, and since he is such a powerful and knowledgeable wizard, his mistakes are the biggest of them all.


But theres got to be a reason for WHY dumbledore trusts snape so much, and i think we are about to find out exactly why in book 7.
Dumbledore has always spoken very highly of Snape, and the fact that the other teachers/OOTP didn't know what snape was upto at the end of HBP shows that dumbledore trusted snape and wanted no one else but snape to carry out the task.

Yes, dumbledore might be wrong at times, but i dont think he's wrong about Snape. He's the redemptionist of the novel, and i think we're going to have all of the issues resolved with him by the end of the last book.

Ah well, we'll wait and see where it goes.

Old Post May 5th, 2007 09:24 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Snape not evil...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by T.Maria
But theres got to be a reason for WHY dumbledore trusts snape so much, and i think we are about to find out exactly why in book 7.
No, there doesn't at all. Dumbledore is, for all intents and purposes, jaded due to his own power. Now, that isn't to say he's arrogant, it just means that he can be wrong: simple as that.

quote:
Dumbledore has always spoken very highly of Snape, and the fact that the other teachers/OOTP didn't know what snape was upto at the end of HBP shows that dumbledore trusted snape and wanted no one else but snape to carry out the task.
Or it could just be that having others know of his plans is a liability that wasn't worth risking. The Order of Phoenix is a band of motley wizards. Do you honestly think that letting everyone know of every aspect of their work is a smart thing to do? To me, Molly Weasley doesn't exactly have the requisites for a powerful wizard who can block people from entering her mind.

quote:
Yes, dumbledore might be wrong at times, but i dont think he's wrong about Snape. He's the redemptionist of the novel, and i think we're going to have all of the issues resolved with him by the end of the last book.
I never said he was wrong, nor did I say I think Snape is evil. All I said was that Dumbledore's word shouldn't be taken as certifiable, verified fact, and that he can be wrong. But I agree in that we'll just have to wait to find out. My guess is that you think Snape is good, right?. smile


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Old Post May 5th, 2007 11:41 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by judgejudgejudge
one of the deeper mysteries of harry potter...


One we will not know till we read the book!jm


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Old Post May 5th, 2007 02:31 PM
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Why didn't Snape merely kill Flitwick instead of going to the effort of knocking him out? Snape would have had to kill Dumbledore regardless of his allegiances due to the unbreakable vow, plus Dumbledore vouched for him continually. Plus Hagrid mentions the conversation he heard between Dumbledore and Snape where Dumbledore wanted Snape to do something that Snape really didn't want to do. Plus Dobby (Who has been known to overhear teacher's conversations before) mentions that he could throw himself off Hogwarts highest tower, in the same book.


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Old Post May 5th, 2007 03:05 PM
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T.Maria
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Snape not evil...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Macabre
No, there doesn't at all. Dumbledore is, for all intents and purposes, jaded due to his own power. Now, that isn't to say he's arrogant, it just means that he can be wrong: simple as that.

Or it could just be that having others know of his plans is a liability that wasn't worth risking. The Order of Phoenix is a band of motley wizards. Do you honestly think that letting everyone know of every aspect of their work is a smart thing to do? To me, Molly Weasley doesn't exactly have the requisites for a powerful wizard who can block people from entering her mind.

I never said he was wrong, nor did I say I think Snape is evil. All I said was that Dumbledore's word shouldn't be taken as certifiable, verified fact, and that he can be wrong. But I agree in that we'll just have to wait to find out. My guess is that you think Snape is good, right?. smile


I do agree with your points, but at the end of that day you have to look at it as the fact that it IS a book.
Everything needs tying up at the end, including WHY dumbledore trusted snape so much.

Don't get me wrong, Im not really much of a snape fan, but from where im standing i think Snape will probably end up getting his redemption by the end of the book.
Also, i dont know if anyone else has noticed, but no one else in the order seems to know WHY dumbledore trusts snape so much. It has been an ongoing plot within all of the books, even in book 1 when harry thought snape was trying to kill him.
Dumbledore has always had a reason, and up until now the readers have never been told. And I think the reason is something that will probably end up being a big plot point.

I'm not arguing or anything, I've just got alot of unanswered questions with these books and im just wondering if anyone else basically thought the same as me smile

WillRules,
Your right on the money with the fact that snape didn't kill flitwick.
And i remembered the convo with snape and dumbledore that hagrid overheard.
JKR has always been subtle with little pieces of plot that lead into the next book, like the room of requirement that she mentioned in GOF, and then it became quite a big storyline in OOTP.

All im saying is that ANYTHING can be anything in HP, because you never know when JKR will drop a bombshell in a book and you will go;

"Oh yeah! I remember that! Why didn't i pick up on that!"

smile

Old Post May 5th, 2007 11:42 PM
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Thats true!


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Old Post May 5th, 2007 11:49 PM
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Snape didn't kill Flitwick because knocking him outdistracted Hermionie and Ron. If he killed him, not only would they not stay with Flitwick long enough, but they'd think he killed him.


Duh.


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Old Post May 7th, 2007 12:46 AM
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T.Maria
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ~Pielover~
Snape didn't kill Flitwick because knocking him outdistracted Hermionie and Ron. If he killed him, not only would they not stay with Flitwick long enough, but they'd think he killed him.


Duh.



we'll see

Old Post May 7th, 2007 09:29 AM
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ADarksideJedi
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Makes alot of sence so far.Can't wait till July!jm


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Old Post May 7th, 2007 01:54 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by T.Maria
Theres a conversation that Hagrid overhears in HBP between snape and Dumbledore.
Snape tells dumbledore that hes taking things for granted, etc.

He tells harry about it, and then he tells ron and hermione...cant remember what page its on though...
But we're lead to believe that the conversation is about Snape doing his death eater duties, but i think they might be discussing what needs to be done if the worse comes to the worse.

I rekon that Dumbledore AND snape both knew what Malfoy was upto, and prior to Dumbledore's death, he's TOLD Snape to be the one to kill him (because this also spares Malfoy's life in the process at the hands of voldemort, AND from a stretch in azkaban, which i think is very telling because Malfoy will probably have a bigger role in the 7th book).

When dumbledore was begging snape to do it, i think he was begging because he knew that snape didn't want to kill him.

Just my thoughts though...feel free to ignore smile


I totally agree, i re-read HBP recently and came across the same little speech. It ties in with the whole dumbledore trusting snape thing. Maybe he trusted snape enough to get the job done, kill him, piss harry off and prove to voldy that snape is on his side in one fail swoop


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Old Post May 7th, 2007 04:20 PM
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