Some people here are totally misinformed.
Where did you get the idea that Kyp is more powerful than Luke? Kyp doesn't even compare to Luke!
Nowhere does it say Kyp is more powerful than Luke, except one moment when an arrogant and cocky Kyp thinks that he is more powerful.
It took both Exar Kun and Kyp to take down Luke.
Luke handled the slayers with ease and saved Jacen and Jaina as well, who were struggling against them. Kyp was no match for the slayers compared to Luke's power, and was captured by them after being defeated (TUF).
Vader didn't hold back against Luke in their duel. In fact, Vader KNEW HIMSELF that Luke was MORE POWERFUL than himself AND the Emperor. Read the book Shadows of the Empire for more details.
In fact he knew that Luke would've defeated him in Empire Strikes Back, if he became angry instead of getting confused.
Luke - described as THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN THE GALAXY - official Star Wars databank (check bio of Anakin Solo and Mara Jade).
Also described so by Star Wars authors Aaron Allston and Walter J Williams.
Luke - more powerful than the Emperor and Vader (SOTE, Dark Empire, ROTJ), and Vader and the Emperor are more powerful than Yoda, Mace etc (Episode 3), and Kyp Durron is nowhere near any of these people.
There's a reason why Luke is explained as THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN THE GALAXY.
In addition, the force feats of Luke are numerours, from being at 2 places at once even through hyperspace, levitating, Flying the falcon along with all it's weapons all through the force (all COPL), to manipulating thousands of minds at once (Crystal Star), to healing himself using the force from a mortal injury (COPL), healing Mara completely that even Vergere's tears couldn't heal (TUF), to saving Jacen numerous times with such power that Jacen could only awe (Dark Tide: Onslaught, TUF), lightsaber skills that no one else save Mace Windu with his 7th form displayed (TUF), to force lightning more powerful than any other seen (TUF, Dark Empire), to taking down an AT-AT singlehandedly in seconds (Dark Empire), to being resistant to force choke and able to create powerful force shields to save those around him as well (Dark Empire), to creating an entire fortress with the force alone (blackfeet cris), to levitate across lava fields (JAT), and many, many more.
No one stood a chance against him, from Darth Vader to the Emperor, to the powerful Vong warriors, the slayers and Shimrra. The official statements explaining him as the most powerful of the Jedi is in addition to all this..
Crystal clear.
Last edited by MadHeretic on Sep 22nd, 2004 at 12:45 AM
MH,
I agree Luke is truely powerful and this is something that is confirmed
by the line in ESB by Ben... 'that boy is our only hope'
now i know that Leia is also talented in the force, but she is not trained...but for Yoda to even consider her as capable of defeating the Emperor and Vader if Luke failed or turned to the darkside speaks volumes about her and Luke's strength in the force...
As far as Luke; because he taps into the darkside and his father is simpathetic towards his son is he able to defeat Vader..
As for Anakin/Vader, it is well know among the Jedi ranks and Palpatine that he is the choosen one and more powerful than any force wielder ever......[Sith or Jedi]
Kun/Durron/Yoda/Palpatine and anybody else dont compare....
Luke is still raw by ROTJ, trained just well enough to confront Vader and Palpatine......
Palpatine was in trouble the day the twins were born, and he knew it...
__________________ "The Force is strong with the Jedi"
what does kyp look like, i heard a lot, but havnt seen him.
__________________ "You can stop a rose from growing if you nip it in the bud, but you can't stop the stream from flowing and you cannot stop the flood."
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Not that I know anything at all about Dyrron, or what the EU has to say about Luke being the most powerful Jedi (and remember, only the EU sections on the website say this, and so that is only statement on EU continuity)...
.... but remember that Vader has lost a load of his power when he got injured; so says George Lucas himself. So it is Anakin Skywalker who is the super power there, not Vader. Luke can beat Vader for one reason only- Vader has lost his power. This is not speculation, it is fact and overrides all else; GL has stated it as so. But then Luke was only a Padawan at the time.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
GL also made another statement (ep 1 or ep 2 commentary) that the darkside is more powerful, that it boosts the power of the user. That statement goes very well with his recent one about Anakin becoming weaker as Vader. We could imagine how much power the darkside would give to someone already powerful as Anakin. Both of his statements don't contradict each other.
Indeed he became weaker as a result of this injury, but he drew on the darkside all the time, which increases his power - thereby balancing his loss of power earlier. Also like you said, Luke was only beginning his journey.
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Never minding the Dark Side, the point is simply that he lost his power as he becomes more machine.
So Anakin Skywalker on the Dark Side BEFORE his injuries should be anyone's barometer of power, rather than the Vader Luke fights, because we know he was more powerful at that point.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
If we completely ignore EU and only focus on what GL said and the movies, we could agree that Anakin Skywalker before his injuries would be the most powerful.
However, if we add EU, he himself admits that the force was stronger in Luke, and that Anakin SKywalker was never as powerful was he (Vader) was now.
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Like I say, I have little knowledge of hw powerful Luke becomes in EU continuity. My point is really aimed at people saying Vader is the most powerful.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
MadHeretic: one. Kyp Durron is in fact more powerful than Luke Skywalker in terms of power. Luke, after forcing a black hole upon a rakamat, fell unconscious. Kyp, on the other hand, took down a matalok with a black hole and was only very tired afterwards. so that proves that he's stronger than Luke.
second, yes, Luke is unparalleled in saber skill by the time he faces Shimrra, but we're not talking about Luke, we're talking about Vader.
third, he NEVER uses Force Lightning in the NJO. Kyp however can and is willing to use it.
lastly, Exar Kun may have helped Kyp, but it was Kyp who conjured the Sith serpents which took down Luke. so it's Kyp who's stronger.
btw...you do realize this is a Kyp Durron vs Darth Vader, not kyp durron vs luke. i was merely pointing out that Kyp had beat Luke before.
__________________ I am the last of the Dragonkin...
1. Indeed Luke fell unconcsious after moving the blackhole. The reason is CLEARLY explained in TUF before his grand fight.
Luke was HOLDING BACK HIS POWER a lot, because he was afraid that using his full power would make him turn to the darkside. Get it? Even when he was using so much power as to move a blackhole, he was holding back so much that it is a miracle he only fell unconcious. It shows the pure power and control of Luke, that even while using that much amount of force, he was restraining himself by limiting his power at the same time - which would be disastrous when such amounts of force is used.
In the official site, there is an interview where the author of the book where Kyp moved that blackholes talks about Kyp and Luke (Aaron Allston)....He has before explained clearly that Luke is the most powerful of the Jedi. In this interview he gets tired of repeating that and points to the databank for anyone who doubts Luke's power....where he's officially stated as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.
2. Unparalleled by saber skill? He's unparalleled by everything. Have you read the numerous things that Luke has done with the force? I have made a very short list somewhere - in this thread or another. Check it..and it's only 1/4 of the things that he has done.
3. More facts for you.
He doesn't use force lightning?????
Think again. Jacen Solo was about to get killed by a slayer....and guess what Luke did? He made a powerful emerald lightning to (emerald is used to knock out and required more control, unlike blue which takes life energy). You want more info about Luke's force lightning? Read Dark Empire. Remember the Emperor using force lightning on Luke? Luke used a much, much more powerful force lightning on the emperor - it was a small dose, yet it sent him crashing though the wall..
Last edited by MadHeretic on Sep 28th, 2004 at 04:11 AM
4. Exar Kun may have helped Kyp?
Kyp didn't have any power to even raise the Sun Crusher. His connection to the force is explained in there as feeble..and then he cried to Exar Kun for help, and he added his power to Kyps thereby enabling him to do it. He is a gifted student, but being compared to Luke! It's unfair to Kyp!
It was he who conjured the Sith Serpents???? Read again! More facts for you! It was EXAR KUN who used Sith magic (also called sith serpents and sith poison) which took down Luke and doing it from behind, while Kyp was using force lightning, where Luke was unwilling to strike down his student. Kyp is weak compared to Luke.
Kyp has done "ONE" single significant thing using the force - by his own power - moving the blackhole like Luke - which still doesn't even compare because Luke did it without using his full power and restraining himself! For any other significant feat, he either completely failed (no match for the slayers), or need the power of someone more powerful (Exar Kun). Kyp is perhaps Luke's most gifted student, but he is NOWHERE near Luke in terms of power or control, and can't even be compared to him.
Yes I realize this is a Kyp Durron vs Darth Vader thread. But seeing many make WRONG statements about Kyp with regard to Luke - the latest being yourself, I was forced to present the actual facts - so that people would be able to make fair decisions on Vader vs Kyp, after analyzing actual facts about Kyp instead of the lies that are spread around. - Which in turn would show that Kyp is no match for Darth Vader.
Last edited by MadHeretic on Sep 28th, 2004 at 04:13 AM
On a sidenote, there are certain things which Vader fans should know.
1. GL said that Vader was personally responsible for wiping out almost all the Jedi..
2. Mace Windu would prove to be no match for Anakin Skywalker (Ep-3)
3. Anakin Skywalker, is explained by the official sources as the most powerful Jedi ever lived - upto that point (note that this includes Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan etc).
4. Like Ushgarak said earlier, Anakin lost a significant portion of his power after his accident.
5. As much as he became weak by becoming more of a machine, his draw on the darkside made him even more power powerful than ever.
6. Only his son and the Emperor himself were more powerful than Vader.
Here's a quote on the validity of 5 and 6. These are his own words from Shadows of the Empire. He clearly specifies "Anakin" ie, his form before he became Vader, ie "Vader" is talking about "Anakin".
"He would never go back to what he had been men-
tally. Weak, foolish, idealistic. Anakin had been much
like Luke Skywalker was now. Mere . . . potential.
Yes, the Force was strong in Luke, perhaps even
stronger than it had been in Anakin. But the boy
needed to embrace the dark side, to learn where the
real power was, to achieve his true promise."
Last edited by MadHeretic on Sep 28th, 2004 at 04:22 AM
"one point i would like you to address though is this one...if Vader was so powerful then why did Luke beat him so easily?"
One one point it doesn't matter really. Vader was so powerful. His son became even more powerful than him. He himself acknowledges that in Shadows of the Empire. Even the Emperor foresaw that in the movies. We may never know why Luke became better than his father, but it is said that the force was stronger in Luke than Vader. No clear answer is given why. One assumption is that Luke retained all Vader's midichlorians and had his own as well by some will of the force, and was destined to do all this. We may never know how Luke mananged this much power, but in light of thse events, one interesting thing to watch out for is his son Ben. Who knows if he would become even better than Luke?
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I already addressed that. GL has made it clear that Luke can defeat Vader because Vader has become de-powered. Luke was only a Padawan at the time and could not have beaten any of the powerful Jedi at their prime. Vader has lost not only his force power, but his speed and dexterity as well.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Ush,
In TPM Anakin is refered to as having a higher mid. count than even Master Yoda......and we all know that Yoda is, if not the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the time one of them.......
so even a depleted Anakin is more powerful than the average Jedi or even some of the most powerful, plus Vader can tap into the darkside to defeat his foes....this is probably what he does in ROTS.....along with Sidious's help.......
Luke is very talented and powerful but he is not fully trained.....
Yoda refers to Luke as not being a Jedi yet in ROTJ until he faces Vader, and that Luke is trained well enough to confront both Vader and the Emperor......this tells me he is very powerful, but still raw.....
By suggesting that Leia is another choice if Luke somehow fails tells me that she too possess's the same qualities as Luke........
So after all of this and know of Kyp's talents, I dont think that he is as powerful as Vader/Luke or heck even Leia
__________________ "The Force is strong with the Jedi"
Vader knew that Luke had the potential to become more powerful then him because Vader had lost much of his true potential when he became a half-machine.
Luke's training was complete in ROTJ and thus he was a big threat but he had not reached his full potential by ROTJ.
And Luke was no match for the Emperor in ROTJ.
This is your assumption.
Luke was just a padawan in ESB and his training was not even complete yet. Vader proved to be far stronger then Luke in ESB. He out-classed Luke even in the Saber combat and chopped off his hand. Luke stood no chance against Vader in ESB.
Luke became the most powerful Jedi in Star Wars after the Dark Empire period.
Luke became more powerful then the Emperor after the Dark Empire period.
Emperor became more powerful then Yoda by the Dark Empire period.
He becomes most powerful in the Expanded Universe.
By NJO period no one stands a chance against him, so I agree.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 2nd, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Sep 22nd, 2004 12:39 AM
