I tend to disagree. Mace's victory over Palpatine is very questionable imho, given the choreography, the circumstances around the fight, and a few other facts.
Now the choreography depicts Palpatine being the more dominant of the pair up until he's disarmed, where he's able to cut through Mace's groupies with ease before Mace can do anything to stop him, and then constantly push Mace backwards and force him to remain on the defencive. He's also shown at one point with his saber directly positioned towards Mace's undefended chest, yet he doesn't capitalise, which certainly begs a few questions. The Yoda-Palpatine battle depicts a much faster and more skilled Papatine as well, indicating that he was holding back in his battle against Mace.
As for the circumstances around the battle: Palpatine wanted to turn Anakin over to the darkside. One of his primary attempts at doing so was by trying to corrupt Anakin's view of the Jedi Order, as can be seen where he draws parallels between the Jedi and the Sith, and makes out that what the Jedi really seek, is not peace, but power, just like the Sith. We also know that he had been communicating with Anakin telepathically just before the duel in question, playing on his fears of losing Padme, and trying to persuade him to stop the Jedi from killing him. Meaning, he wanted Anakin to come, and given that Palpatine is displayed as first and foremost a manipulator, it would make a lot of sense that he was playing out the fight as exactly what he wanted it to look like when Anakin would arrive. Now let's break down his two choices; he could either aim to kill all 4 Jedi, and have Anakin arrive on the scene to Palpatine standing victorious over Anakin's dead brothers, or he could do as much as he could to strengthen the seeds of doubt that he had planted into Anakin's mind, and have Mace -- one of the senior Jedi Masters -- appear to be trying his hardest to assassinate Palpatine. Given who Palpatine is, option number two would be the far more logical one to believe, especially given that Anakin appears just as Palpatine is disarmed.
Then, as Palpatine starts blasting Mace with his lightning, and then seemingly (I put emphasis on 'seemingly' because Mace had just started to lose control of his lightsaber before Palpatine stopped blasting him, making it pretty clear that Mace was moments away from being fried) getting overpowered by Mace's redirection of the lightning, the transition from being too weak to be able to continue, to unleashing his full "unlimited" power (note how he gets up without showing any signs of having been hurt), certainly seems to be wreaking of deception (as well as terrible acting might I add), and it's quite clear that -- again -- Palpatine was playing both Mace and Anakin.
Also, given how it's shown that Palpatine's force ability is shown to be his signature way of fighting, to the point where he pretty much relies on it (RotJ), the fact that he chooses to battle with his lightsaber, rather than the force, despite the overwhelming numbers, would be another piece of evidence that supports Palpatine faking the lightsaber battle as well as the force battle. Plus, given that it's clear that Palpatine was faking his force battle with Mace, and that there is one, and only one obvious motive for doing so there, which would also apply for the lightsaber battle, there's even more support that he was faking the lightsaber battle as well as the force battle.
Anyways, logic dictates to Palpatine holding back against Mac. I do not view it as a legitimate win, and Obi-Wan's certainly shown to display greater showings, so I'm giving the win to him myself.
In the saber fight, it would be close. Mace's vapaad doesn't has an advantage here. Obiwan is also a master of the defensive form, so Mace could only win in a long, close fight.
If that's the case, then I guess I'll have to take back what I was saying. Still, I personally like to think of Obi-Wan as the second most powerful G-Canon Jedi, given his presence in the saga, and showings. But as I said, if what you say is the case, Mace would likely be on a higher level.
Remember, these are the "G-Canon" incarnations that I'm dealing with. C-Canon and S-Canon, while still canon, only happen in a secondary alternate universe (G-Canon exists in both for the record).
Choreography is a weak argument. I could point out instances where Qui-Gon could've killed Maul by swinging left instead of right, or Dooku could've easily parried one of Anakin's blows, but it doesn't change a thing. The duel happened the way it did. Palpatine was much more mobile during his duel with Yoda because he had the space to do so. Do you think, considering the low ceiling in his office, that he could pull off many of the acrobatics he exhibited against Yoda? I don't think so. Also consider that Palpatine may have adjusted his fighting style based on his opponent. Yoda is a much different adversary than Mace Windu, both physically and in fighting style.
Or it could've happened like this: Palpatine called upon Anakin, knowing that Windu would be coming, considering he knew of Yoda's station on Kashyyyk due to Anakin filling in his seat on the Jedi Council, and the Jedi Council would be foolish to send anyone less. Palpatine knew they would send a group of Jedi to apprehend him and contacted Anakin after knowing of Anakin's admittance of Palpatine's true identity to Windu. Palpatine fought to the best of his ability, but lost. Having lost his first attempt to defeat the Jedi, he used his trump card, using Anakin to help him, putting up a facade of weakness after Anakin's arrival.
This makes more sense, considering if he wanted Anakin's help against the Jedi, why would he leave three Jedi Masters' corpses in his own office? Add to this that considering Palpatine's power, no prison could hold him and virtually no Council could escape his Force Influence, considering he was strong enough to mask his enormous Force abilities even in Yoda's presence, I doubt he would have extreme trouble mind-tricking some of the Council Members.
Just because Palpatine faked the Force battle doesn't mean he faked the lightsaber battle. As I said, he could have just fallen back upon that facade after realizing he couldn't fight Mace with a lightsaber and win, considering the huge advantage Mace gains given the incredible amount of darkness within Palpatine. I have no doubt in my mind that Palpatine is leagues ahead of Mace as far as Force Powers are concerned, but on equal footing, in a small area, like an office, where Mace, who is physically stronger, younger, less corrupted, and has a form which gives an advantage against Palpatine which is greater than he has gained against any opponent, I doubt Palpatine could win.
How so? As far as G-Canon is concerned, choreography is pretty much the only indication of how Jedi in the saga fight with their primary weapon: the lightsaber, and for the duel in question, it gives great insight into the possible motives behind the fighters (more specifically: the motives behind Palpatine).
If you're addressing my point of Palpatine having his lightsaber held directly towards Mace's chest, then you're missing the fundamental point that essentially prove your comparisons useless. What you're referring to, are quite obviously errors within the choreography (that couldn't be helped given the fast paced action of the lightsaber fights). Palpatine having his lightsaber up against Mace's chest is not an error within the choreography, but an instruction given to Ian McDiarmid for a clear purpose (being to illustrate that Palpatine could have killed him, but held off of doing that for some unknown reason), given that if such wasn't the case, he would have been instructed against doing such a thing, which really wouldn't be difficult to accomplish, given that the incident in question takes place in a virtual pause within the fight.
Sure it did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was 100% legitimate.
Do I think so? Hell yes I do, considering that he's shown doing them in his duel with Mace as well. Far less frequently and effectively, sure, but it essentially disproves your assertion that the vertical space within his office would be limiting him in such a way, and supports the idea that he was holding back. You're also not addressing footwork mobility, something which Palpatine displays with far greater ability in his fight with Yoda, which happens on the Chancellor's podium -- a smaller area space (which is what would hinder footwork), and you're also ignoring other factors beyond mobility, such as saber strike fluidity, which -- again -- Palpatine displays with far greater ability than he does in his fight with Mace.
You... do realise that this would work against your argument, right?
Yoda is displayed as a far greater duelist than Mace Windu, especially when it comes to speed and mobility, which are the things which would limit your opponent's speed and mobility (they have to be sacrificed to a degree to maintain concentration when up against a faster opponent) the most. Yet, Palpatine displays more speed and mobility, against the faster and more mobile opponent. Something clearly is not adding up there.
Look, I never said that my speculative argument was absolute or anything, your's could very well be correct too, but you're glossing over a few facts that heavily undermine your position, such as the fact that he gets disarmed just as Anakin enters the office. Coincidence, eh? Plus, there's the entire choreography based argument above, which you've either failed to address, or failed to counter properly.
Simply because, leaving all four Jedi alive would make it near impossible for him to truly hold his own for such a long time whilst holding back from killing anyone. It really wouldn't jeopardise his attempts to turn Anakin however, given that the Senior Jedi Master among the group was still alive, and appeared to be in a victorious position against the Chancellor, and ready to assassinate an unarmed prisoner, which essentially produces the effect that Palpatine was reaching for - that the Jedi really were false prophets, that would turn against their own teachings, to maintain power (in this case, power over the Sith). Plus, Anakin's fears of losing Padme would far outweigh any feelings for his fallen Jedi brothers or feelings for bringing justice to the Chancellor, and all that was really needed was a final trigger, which was provided.
Oh wow. Truly astonishing argument. So because he was able to mask his force presence from the Jedi, he would logically be able to mind control some of the Council members?
Firstly, the force persuade ability is set up as being a power which only works on the weak willed, something which Jedi are set up as being the absolute opposite of.
Secondly, your argument relies on the assertion that ability A and ability B are directly proportional with eachother when it comes to the power with which they are used with, despite one dulling a Jedi's force senses, and the other affecting someone's mind. By this logic, Palpatine should have had no problems with mind controlling even Yoda, given how he was able to mask his presence from him, or hell, by this logic, Palpatine should have completely owned him with the force, no problem. Oh wait... That's not what happened.
So, clearly individual force techniques are not directly proportional with personal force ability, ergo, this argument fails.
Not necessarily, sure, but it is indicative of his motive, which would exist within both battles.
Erm... what? Nowhere is this mentioned in G-Canon.
You seem to be overestimating the disadvantage that Palpatine would receive from such a small area. As already explained, it has little effect on his mobility, and as far as force powers are concerned... all that would really be required is the distance needed to make a slight hand gesture... about thirty centimetres? Either way, the space means little.
This means.. what exactly? A constant theme in Star Wars is that age and physical attributes means nothing with the force. Just look at Yoda or Dooku, or even Palpatine, who in his fight with Yoda, fights with far greater speed and mobility than Mace ever does.
Relevance?
What form is this? Where is that said? Again, I'd like to reiterate that only G-Canon material is to be used as evidence for this thread.
You're right. I took to answering this thread using outside information. I'm not that deep into G-Canon sources. This thread has become a "Did Palpatine throw the fight?" thread, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Regardless, I still hold that Mace would undoubtedly defeat Obi-Wan.
No need, it sounds pretty convincing, given how Mace is set up as being the most senior member of the Jedi Council -- apart from Master Yoda obviously -- throughout the entire duration of the PT, so I can see how GL might want to set him up as being on the same level of Yoda and Sidious in combat. Still think Palps threw the fight, though.
In respect to showings however? I'd honestly not even rank him in the top 5 (Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Grievous, Darth Maul, and Qui-Gon being above him), though, he does kick a lot of ass in the Battle of Geonosis however. He takes out Jango Fett good.
BTW, if it's not too much to ask, could anyone post some EU Mace/Obi-Wan feats?
By the way, he actually beat grievous, it was directly stated as 1 of the 2 only jedis that could possibly be able to beat sidious (the other one was yoda) and dooku actually run from him when they engaged in obsession... Grievous, obi-wan, maul, qui-gon etc are noway superior to windu...
Last edited by kamhal on Nov 14th, 2007 at 07:44 PM
Erm, all that really proves that Mace is superior to Obi-Wan, period, is what Lightsnake has provided. Still, based on G-Canon showings, there's nothing that really puts him above Obi-Wan, in any combat related way, so how exactly can you label him a better swordsman, specifically? You may be a moderator, Rexy, but you're gonna have to start backing up your views.
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Nov 12th, 2007 05:10 PM
