I did. I talked about a human-like AI system with you maybe a year or two ago. It might have been around the time we first started talking IRL to each other.
Re: Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
OK I've just joined this place. No idea whether killer movies refers to great movies or movies featuring killers . . but anyway . .
Th essence of souls are in fact self awareness. A soul is a self as in the sense of an experiencer who has experiences. A soul normally implies that such a self will survive death, and perhaps even be immortal.
The question I would like to ask you "inimalist" is why you think that souls cannot be aware?
Re: Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
You could scarcely be more wrong. So called optical "illusions" help to illustrate that what we see is actually an implicit theory about the external world. I have a blog entry here (link deleted) which might be of interest.
If it were not for optical "illusions" we would see squares A and B as being the same colour. Indeed if we were unable to perceive optical illusions we wouldn't see reality anything like as we see it now -- we wouldn't even be able to see that the world is 3D! We wouldn't be able to negotiate our environment. Indeed, although we might have perfect vision, we really wouldn't be able to see all that terribly well.
Update: OK I've just found that I can't post a link to my blog as of yet!
OK on my blog I talk about this so-called "illusion"
Further update. I can't even upload an image or link to an image either! This is just absolutely useless. Can't see me making any more entries in this place! If people are interested just go and search for the checker-shadow illusion!
And to quote my blog:
I'm sure that all of us are astounded that the squares A and B are actually the same colour. It is the shadow cast over B by the cylinder which makes us think otherwise. What this suggests is a quite incredible illusion.
However I think there is a pervasive naivety about the nature of perception. Most of us doubtless feel that we see the external world directly. But we emphatically do not.
Consider a red rose. We think of a red rose as being the same colour throughout the day. However the light from the Sun reaching the Earth varies throughout the day. When the Sun is low in the sky, lots of blue light gets scattered away since the sunlight has to travel through a greater quantity of air. So if we were to passively see colours "as they really are", then the colour of our red rose would change throughout the day. Indeed the colour of all objects would change throughout the day. But in fact our rose seems to stay pretty much the same colour throughout the daylight hours. Why is this?
The answer lies in the fact that we do not in fact simply passively see what is out there. Rather the brain performs certain operations on the data coming through our senses and presents it to our consciousness in a form that we can make sense of. Everything we ever see is in fact a hypothesis about how the world is. Thus we have an implicit theory about the external world that it contains objects which have specific intrinsic colours. Hence the brain will perform those operations which ensure that objects do indeed appear to be the same colour throughout daylight hours.
This applies not just to colours, but everything we perceive through our 5 senses. In a way then everything we ever perceive is an illusion. But I think this is misleading.
Let's consider the "illusion" above again. If this were a real 3D object and we were to approach it and view it from various angles, then we would see that squares A and B are very different colours. Indeed their intrinsic colours would be precisely as we perceive them in the illusion above.
But in that case what justifies us in labelling it as an illusion? If this were a real object that we are seeing, then squares A and B are very different colours. Our senses are not deceiving us. Indeed if someone claimed to see the squares as being precisely the same colour, then it is doubtful that he could proficiently visually apprehend his environment.
This is not to say we never perceive illusions. Sometimes we seem to see something, but which on closer inspection turns out to be something else entirely. Or sometimes what we seem to visually see is not consistent with our other senses.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
I'm not necessarily saying I won't contribute again. I was in a mood about not being able to provide any links.
I will contribute here if any interesting discussions develop. I'm not really interested in "winning" arguments. I think these discussions should be a collaborative venture. We're all interested in seeking to answer questions such as whether we are mere sophisticated biological machines, or whether we are souls, and a whole host of other questions!
Re: Re: Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
whether I agree with specific points or not, your post just shows you have absolutly no idea what my overall point was.
If we have a soul that is responsible for our perception of the world, it is inherently flawed, in such a way that shows faulty design from a creator. Now, you point to something that isn't an illusion in the sense that it shows errorous processing, fine. That doesn't mean there aren't numerous errors that show the limitations of the system. It is actually moot that some errors in perception can be a product of beneficial systems that allow us to navigate the world around us.
So, your post either further supports the point I was trying to make in that our perception is not a perfect representation of reality, or it makes a plug for a blog that is not relevant to the topic.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
?
because that was the topic we had moved to in the post he quoted, I was explaining the point I was making. Some threads, based on the nature of discussion, do move away from the initial question asked, and I believe someone was suggesting that the human soul meant that computers couldn't be sentient.
there is always the question of why any soul that is responsible for perception would be flawed based on the material qualities of our brains, if they aren't physical themselves, you don't really have to assume there is a creator for this to be a problem for any theory of a soul.
__________________ yes, a million times yes
Last edited by tsilamini on May 25th, 2011 at 12:16 AM
Re: Re: is it possible for a computer to gain self awareness
If quantum mechanics is required to explain minds, then non-local phenomena increases and human minds may have unconscious telepathic like synchronicity with other minds over space and time.
If materialists want to deny parapsychological like phenomena, they have to stick to classical computation, which I agree cannot create consciousness.
But it doesn't know it is asking and it dosn't know what it is asking for .. these are pure automations, goals set by programmers (not allowed in materialists version of natural selection)
You are confusing immitation with conscious thinking.
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
That's just restating the claim.
What do you define as "knowing". What is it in a human that makes it "know" something. How is it different to having a computer be able to answer the question what are you and return the information "computer", which is easily possible, I could code that in a couple minutes.
And if it is more complex, then define what it is and prove that a computer program can not do it.