This is a battlezone...I guess...between myself and Quanchi. The subject is "Darkseid's forces vs Thanos' forces" in an all out war.
There are no judges for this, and the timelimit is not set in stone...it is tentatively 3 days, but if it takes longer than we will go longer.
No "objects of power". That is to say, no Infinity Gems/Infinity Gauntlets or Anti Life Equations, no Godwave or Cosmic Cube, no Heart of the Universe or Worlogog...well, you get the idea. Tech is fine, but special objects of power are not. So, for instance, Thanos' throne that was replicated by his own tech would be fine, but I don't want to see him pulling out random devices. On the other hand, the method of Thanos' plan to get those power ups can definitely be used as evidence for his intelligence.
- Darkseid and Thanos get to bring in whatever allies they are likely to have. You can argue that they can have any ally at all, but it is UP for debate.
-They each, simultaneously, are given the location of a window in space/time that allows them to send probes and data-collecting devices - but no organics and nothing overtly hostile. After one year this rip will widen and change, allowing for full scale attack, but during this one year period there can be NO open hositilities. The two sides can only prepare, plan, and build up their respective war machines. This allows both of our guys to be at their tip top.
I think that is it. Quanchi can add whatever he wants.
I'm short on time now, so I'll just post this, and then do a lot more (hopefully) in a couple of hours...
Well, it would be quite a battle wouldn’t it? With a year of a simulated “cold war” setting to build up their respective war machines, two of the baddest cosmic mofo’s in the universe would have to cause some pretty large sparks to fly. They each have access to some of the greatest technology in the universe, some of the greatest tactical and technical minds in the universe.
I’ll be talking a lot about what Darkseid can potentially bring to the table here, recounting – sometimes in detail, and sometimes only superficially – his more notable plans and accomplishments, some of the technology that has been demonstrated, and finally his elite guard and notable people he might bring to the table.
Since I have to start somewhere…why not start at the bottom, right?
The “grunts” of Darkseid’s war machine are invariably the Parademons. Their numbers seem…well, infinite, and I know of no instance of Darkseid “running out” of them. How powerful are they? It really depends, but punches from one or two are enough to cause Superman to grunt, at least…
Now, not only can Darkseid create and grow these warrior machines at will, but they can’t die; not unless he himself allows it. This allows for an inexhaustible army of powerful cavalry to face what will inevitably be Thanos’ horde of space pirates and bandits, all of whom are space able, with powerful energy weapons and strength capable of making Byrne Superman grunt.
Forces of Darkseid that he DOES allow to die, however, are his Suicide Jockies. Insanely loyal, totally unafraid of death, their entire existence is simply about killing themselves to kill a foe. And their death explosions are powerful enough to kill even powerful gods like Tigra. These guys further demonstrate the incredible mental brainwashing Darkseid puts his forces through.
Darkseid is one of the best planners in the DC Multiverse, manipulating gods and mortals and everything in between.
The list of his accomplishments is legion, of course, orchestrating his own resurrection, conquering Olympus and very nearly doing the same to Paradise Island, orchestrating the Legends event, bringing on the destruction of all of time…but I’ll just go into a few.
Darkseid, as young Uxas, orchestrates the split between the Roman and Greek Gods, weakening their power base for centuries.
A young Darkseid engineers the Great War between Apokolips and New Genesis, manipulating his uncle Steppenwolf into killing Avia, and then faking the death of Izaya so that the first techno-cosmic war can be born, and Darkseid can take the thrown (with help from Desaad).
A quick rundown of a number of his schemes – orchestrating his own death at the hands of Orion IN the source to cause universal chaos (and nearly universal destruction, which he could take advantage of).
So too did he orchestrate the corruption of Orion by faking his own deaths in the battle in the Fire Pits, giving Orion the leadership of Apokolips. His plan worked TOO well, as Orion gained control of the Anti-Life Equation and nearly subjugated the universe with it. (No scans)
Darkseid manipulates pretty much all the significant events of Countdown and the DCU at this point, so subtly that they have no idea that they are being manipulated into exactly the position he wants them to be in. He guides the quest of Karate Kid/Una/Buddy Blank/Firestorm, he manipulates the Challengers of the Multiverse (Bob the Moniter, Kyle Rayner, Jason Todd, Donna Troy), he dictates the Journey of Jimmy Olsen and the lives of Holly Robinson and Joker’s sidekick, Harley Quinn (while setting up a new Amazon army). He also orchestrated Amazon’s Attacks, and Salvation Run.
Darkseid manipulates Metron into creating the Matter Threshold device for Apokolips exclusively (as well as other weapons, according to v2) in exchange for the X-Element, even pointing out that Metron would one day betray them (as he eventually did, of course, by helping New Genesis as well).
Moreover, Darkseid orchestrated the Legends event, outlawing heroes on the planet earth and spreading distrust across the globe, destroying the confidence of Billy Batson, creating a new foe for Firestorm (The Parasite) and all in all nearly delivering a devastating blow to earth and to the universe (No scans).
Darkseid destroys Paradise Island, killing thousands of some of the best trained warriors in the universe, certainly on the planet
Darkseid’s forces (Female Furies + Parademons) conquers and enslaves a large number of Green Martians. This reveals that even the Parademons are immune to MOST mind attacks, save when the remaining Martians pooled their power, and that the true New Gods (the elite) were immune even to that…
Darkseid takes over the planet earth, causing Superman to kill himself and subjecting everything. He likewise turns New Genesis into a “stinking, cosmic sewer” and spreads his influence over the very fabric of the universe to such a degree that it must be destroyed and remade.
Martian Manhunter and crew vs Darkseid’s forces… “It was a battle we could not win, but winning was not the point”. This group included the Spectre, the Uncle Sam evolution (Patriot, I believe it was called…creating during the Ostrander Spectre series), and a Dr. Fate.
Oh, and as far as the rules for the thread...As far as I'm concerned, anyone can chime in if they so desire, but know that I probably won't be responding, especially once Quanchi gets his stuff together.
Otherwise, y'all can just wait 'til "the end" of our discussion and I'll try to argue any points with you.
Oh, and one thing I forgot to add to just the general "forces" part of this...Darkseid's forces against the assembled heroes of the DCU and some New Genesis backup.
Now this version of Brimstone is ultimately defeated by exploiting a chink in Brimstone’s armor – the magnetic field that holds his body together modulates at certain frequencies, and a weapon is developed that can go through this. Deadshot destroys the techno-seed and done.
Unfortunately for Thanos (and Quanchi), this gets fixed. As does the Magnetic field disruption problem.
Okay, so we’ve established that Brimstone is a pretty powerful construct, capable of taking on Firestorm (multiple incarnations) and the Detroit League AND a Legion of Superhero member pretty well (A version has also had a bad showing against Martian Manhunter, 1v1, but all characters have bad showings, right?)
We also know that, as a programmed construct, it is insanely loyal to Darkseid, believing Darkseid to be the end-all-be-all. Basically, unswayably loyal to Darkseid.
Finally, we know that Brimstone, in point of fact, does not rely on any resources from Darkseid. He has sent out multiple “techno-seeds”, and has done so for frivolous things like showing earth that he still thinks of it from time to time. Instead, they draw their power from whatever sources of tremendous heat they incubate in, be it a nuclear reactor, the sun, or an active volcano.
So the question becomes…what is the limit to Darkseid’s production of these things? And the answer seems to be…as many stars as there are in the sky.
Imagine Darkseid producing countless techno-seeds over the course of the year. It would take minimal loss of resources – just the creation of the techno seed, not the production of the power – and it will allow him to have an army of top tier soldiers fiercely loyal to him, marching to the beat of his drum. Over the course of the year, he might create thousands and thousands of these techno-seeds, sending them all across the universe to stars not surrounded by inhabited worlds (just for ease of use, I mean…why get into needless skirmishes when a war is a’brewin’?).
This would be a HUGE boon to Darkseid, and while I’m sure there are things that Thanos could do to find a way to stop them…I think it would be tough. The Magnetic fields have already been fixed so that it seems that even magnetic manipulation wouldn’t do the job, and the techno-seed is guarded against the same type of attack that Deadshot used.
Ok I agree Darkseid is a great planner and strategist but conquering the Greek pantheon has been done with ease before by another being. Here I show you how easily Cronus conquered the greek pantheon and I note he conquered another one shortly thereafter and almost succeeded in conquering heaven but couldnt control the power of the Presence.
Im glad he brought up Darkseid and the great war he started with Izaya. This is a war he hasnt won yet and has been locked in a virtual stalemate since this neverending war began. Darkseid shouldnt start wars he cant finish.
Oh yeah here is Ares who is a member of the Greek pantheon that Desaad has mentioned. Heres him in action with Darkseid's equal Izaya.
If the Guardians didnt show up and call a truce Darkseid may have died that day.
Darkseid has indeed manipuated his son Orion and the Source itself but what did he really gain? Izaya and New Genesis have always weathered the storm. It doesnt seem that difficult to manipulate the dog of war anyways.
Now with regards to the Rock of Ages yes that was nicely done until the JLA caught up with him and took his life.
Thats all for now as I am very bust tonight but more will follow as this will more than likely be extended until Friday and perhaps beyond that. The holidays are very busy for me so bear with us in this very fun battlezone with nothing at stake really.
Last edited by quanchi112 on Dec 25th, 2007 at 12:04 AM
Pay special attention to the kind of power we see Hermes showing, and then compare that to the state we find him in in Action 600 (source of my scan)
That would be a good point, if Darkseid's goal in starting the Great War was defeat of New Genesis. But that wasn't it at all. He was setting the stage for his ultimate takeover of Apokolips.
In which he succeeded 100%.
Once he DID succeed, he determined that the war was no longer necessary and worked with Izaya to end it.
Yet AGAIN did he leave an out for himself, though, in the conditioning of Scott Free.
Where, specifically, has Darkseid tried and failed to kill Izaya? Not in the leadup to the Great War, where he had Izaya at his mercy and could have killed him with a gesture. Not really any time during any run was his goal to kill Izaya.
Ares was lucky at best. Darkseid did all the leg work, and then Ares tried to ultimately seize power -- only to fail, when Darkseid froze him in the source; more on that in the technology section.
Or maybe not. They stopped it, so we'll never know. Darkseid was powering up his Omegas, and I've never seen him hurt by anything like a shovel before.
The fact that the Oans felt they needed to make a truce speaks to their position in the war.
Haha, with years of prep, and Batman - the greatest strategist on the planet - working from within for years.
And it was still a Deux Ex Machina win, hardly anything that could be foreseen.
So far I’ve (hopefully) demonstrated how intelligent Darkseid is, how powerful even his fodder is, and the victories that his forces have been able to achieve.
Now I’m going to go some New God technology. Some of the technology I show will actually be New Genesis in origin, but historically Apokolips and New Genesis are in fact on the same level of technology, and occasionally Apokolips actually demonstrates a greater power for war.
First, a couple of statements about Apokolips’ army…
Father Boxes proves capable of creating a weapon that can kill Darkseid with one blast (at point blank range to the head). Father Boxes are the Apokolips version of Mother Boxes, capable of pretty much all the same stuff but bent towards evil.
When New Genesis and the Justice League of Europe are taken over by a sentient mind, the power of Darkseid’s Anti-Energy proves to be the only thing that can weaken and defeat the monster( as well as, ostensibly, New Genesis technology).
Now one of Darkseid’s big advantages over Thanos is the fact that he already has a planet, replete with resources and strong forces, as well as a highly defensable recovery base for all his people, with Boom Tube snares and force fields and what have you.
But what if Thanos got a planet of his own? Well…it wouldn’t go well for him, as Darkseid’s Morrow blocks drain the life energy of entire worlds like a child sucking pepsi through a straw. Even gods die before its power.
Above is yet another way that Darkseid is able to resurrect beings – not just parademons, but anyone or anything. This greatly expands the idea that Darkseid’s forces can’t ever really be killed – even his non parademons can be resurrected.
Even armor that Darkseid gives out to pawns like Lex Luthor – hardly one of his elite – prove capable of going toe to toe with an evil Supergirl, who just finished defeating the Justice League (Luthor eventually loses).
One of the Seven Imperishable Treasures given to Aurakles by the New Gods of New Genesis, this sword was forged to last until the end of the universe itself – until the last black star swallows it whole. It also has the special features of being light as a feather and can only be wielded by one pure of heart.
A random Apokolips enforcer mech gives Byrne Superman a great fight, and the operator inside takes control of Superman’s motor functions and directs him into the fire pits itself…powerful enough to give him amnesia.
You better hope Thanos doesn’t have any telepaths on his side – not only are they going to be useless against any New God, and pretty useless against the Parademons, but they might also have that power turned against them by a Psychic Distorter.
A device, stolen THOUSANDS of years ago (during the time of ancient Egypt) from Apokolips nearly destroys the planet earth, and is only defeated because Hawkgirl has a special connection to it, as well as with all the female furies.
A single New God – Devilance the Pursuer – turns an entire planet into one giant death trap, with powerful traps every 50 yards. This same planet is used during Salvation Run, forcing a huge group of villains to band together just to survive – and a number of them don’t.
Desaad first drives Superman insane, altering his thoughts and creating illusions, then takes control of his mind. Desaad’s mental control device actually kills Superman. He only comes back through certain intervention from Highfather’s nigh-omnipotent staff.
Darkseid and Desaad take control of a small town using Billion Dollar Bates clones (more in next scan). They outfit these guys with weapons powerful enough that Orion feels he should dodge them, AND weapons (the Gut-Buster) powerful enough that Orion things a point blank hit is enough to kill him (… “I’m dead”)
The belt of strength, built by Desaad from old god remnants, proves capable of vastly enhancing Kalibak’s strength – to the point that he is easily able to beat upon a tired Orion (no scans of that). Certainly it allows him to easily destroy a random mutate that was previously defeating him (also goes to show the kind of powerful creatures Apokolips has at its disposal).
This is just to give you an example of the kind of scale we are dealing with – look at all those New Genesis warriors pouring through the Boom Tube. Darkseid has the capability to stalemate them all. That’s a lot of very powerful people.
This is what happens when Apokolips girds for war on a moment’s notice – Psi-Factoid intelligence allows intimate knowledge of any attacks directed against it. Comes in handy preventing someone like Thanos from performing any surprise attacks.
Kanto further demonstrates immunity to telepathy, and then reveals a super-advanced steroid that turns people into Hulk-like monsters. They can’t really be controlled or reasoned with, but its okay because they soon turn into giant bombs anyway.
This is another big deal for Darkseid’s forces. What we have here is something capable of turning normal human beings into frighteningly powerful creatures (see him vs Martian Manhunter), that eventually turn into suicide bombers.
I don’t think I need to explain how devastating this could/would be.
Thanos can bring whatever he wants to the table, but when it comes right down to it, if Darkseid is pushed into it, he is gonna call upon one of the most powerful forces in the universe, and it is going to do his bidding as it did here.
That’s pretty much it for the technology section. If I really wanted to go in depth, I could have shown more stuff that a Mother Box is capable of, but I’m sure by now you get the idea.
Last up, hopefully at some point today but maybe not until tomorrow, I’ll be showcasing some of Darkseid’s elite, or various higher tier soldiers he has.
Iron Man needed help from this powerful guy known as Drax the Destroyer. Hes a pain in the ass to have on your back as he has always wanted and lived only to kill Thanos. Here is the kind of power he has at his disposal. Also note it was explained he will always come back and cant truly be killed until his mission of killing Thanos is complete.
Here are yet two more powerful allies known as Paibok and Superskrull. Superskrull has the powers of the fantastic four and can shapeshift while Paibok is not be underestimated and is the thinker of these two skrulls here while Superskrull is definitely the warrior. These two could cause mayhem and really infiltrate the ranks of Apokolips with Paibok's clever thinking and their shapeshifting abilities.
So this time it will be different and he wont be relying on any artifacts of power and wont just sacrifice them for the helluva it. Funny thing is Thanos killed most of his own troops with this cosmic cube as they failed. That wont be happening here in this war.
So with what I have shown you here its impressive in what he could accomplish with these forces alone. Imagine the slave discs taking control of important people and using outside forces while powering up the Controller to insane heights if power and strength. There are two skrulls here who could shapeshift their ways to be spies on Apokolips and plant slave discs on Apokoliptians. There is also a massive space armada that will be playing for keeps and wont merely be sacrificed as carelessly as they were in this storyline.
Last edited by quanchi112 on Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:52 AM
You see the thing with Cronus is this. He may have had the sickle which contained the power of the godwave but he only challenged the Olympians with his own power. He had more worshipers at the time and that gave him the edge but he had no additional power until he stomped through the Greek pantheon. So he was indeed more powerful after the battle but not during.
Ok with regards to your claim of Darkseid never really intending on murdering Darkseid lets be serious here shall we. When you are locked in battle with New Genesis for ages Im sure one of his goals was to defeat and kill Izaya his equal. Ds took over Apokolips and that was masterfully done but with regards to the great war nothing has really changed. New Genesis still stands as does Apokolips with no side gaining the upper hand and actually winning this neverending war. So again great job on becoming this merciless dictator and lousy job on actually winning the war with New Genesis.
I cannot believe you call Ares lucky as that is not the case at all.
Look at that scan again and read what it says. It says Ares was always ready for this and knew exactly where to be at this crucial moment in time. Darkseid was clueless and was used basically. Darkseid probably would have claimed the power for himself if Ares hadnt be planning for this even before Darkseid had a clue. Darkseid knew how to counter but that wasnt his plan and he had to react to his foe at the exact key moment or all would have been lost. Ares wasnt lucky at all he just was ahead of Darkseid the whole time. No shocker there.
And with regards to the Raker and Darkseid fiasco I dont really care if you think Ds was about to oneshot him or Raker was about to take his head off wit the shovel he had in his hand. The point is this my friend that Ds simply left himself open for attack even though he mopped the floor with the Green Lantern. Even with the yellow weakness thanks to Desaad tampering with the lantern ring Darkseid was still out in the battlefield and was thrashed by Raker. Ds should be a liitle more careful in the field of battle because Thanos wont arrive and call a truce. He'll order the execution of Darkseid and take over his stinking planet.
You acknowledge Batman and how he himself punked Ds with little to no resources as Thanos would such have available to him. Thanos is Batman's superior with regards to prep and with all the technology and the forces at his disposal Darkseid would be toast. I mean the guy almost got taken out by a lone Green Lantern in a war he was actually winning.
Last edited by quanchi112 on Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:15 AM
Now Ill show you a little taste of one of Thanos' own personally trained assassins,Gamora. In this scan here she has a dagger that can kill the Magus who is now a god and is a very powerful character. The guy friggin conquered a thousand worlds and thats damn impressive. Thats a pretty nifty dagger now isnt it?
So as you can see this battle was anything but brief. It ended in a stalemate also. So you can see how powerful Gamora and how resourceful she can be when locked in combat with one such as Ronan.
I will now show you scans of Ronan in battle and defeating Ravenous. Keep in mind he fought Gamora and couldnt defeat her while he broke Ravenous, these scans also briefly touch on Superskrull and him in action as well.
Now here is another of Thanos' powerful allies that will be aiding him against Darkseid. Adam Warlock and his wondrous soul gem. Here you see them work together along with Gamora to fight off 25,000 Black Knights. The last scan is just awesome I love the visual of the mountain of bodies. Keep in mind this was also when Thanos was at his weakest and before his upgrades.
Now here they make an escape from the seemingly endless supply of warriors they face. He is cut off from them before he can follow. He catches up with them later on but its awesome how he evaded death and capture to phase himself to their destination.
Here is Warlock giving into Thanos' advice and letting the soul gem do its thing. Thanos needed to conserve energy and convinced Warlock to do something he had sworn never to do again. Thanos is one convincing son of a gun,now isnt he?
Here Moondragon reaches out to Spiderman who later enlists the aid of the Thing to help out as the Avengers have been dealt with as Thanos' forces are like a well oiled machine with a leader such as Thanos. Thanos will lead these outcasts and Ill explain later on in a future post how this will be done.
Here is a blast that is powerful enough to incapicitate Thor the god of thunder.
Here now its official and they are helpless and have fallen before Thanos this time as he wanted it to be this way. Also we see here that all Thanos needs is Adam's soul gem to make a destroy a single star. So even though they had destroyed Thanos' synthetic gem capable of universal destruction he still adapted and only needed one gem to destroy our galaxy. Chaos and Order have been meddling and want the defeat of Thanos as well as these heroes and want Warlock to interfere and save the day. I mean Thanos killed his ass in this very storyline but many powerful beings ally themselves against this Titan.
Please note that the Silver Surfer couldnt even phase it or Thanos with a point blank blast.
Now we have Thanos just being plain mean here. He takes Norrin on a journey here and kills these poor little creatures to prove a point and delay Norrin Radd. Note that he used the spacechair to accomplish this. Boys will be boys.
Here is another brilliant manuever that Thanos pulled off here in these scans. Thanos fooled the Surfer into thinking he killed Thanos. The reason he did this was to be unimpeded by Norrin as he went after the infinity gems.
Now as you can see Thanos was in no real danger but Grandmaster had no clue and in the virtual game would have lost to the Thanos robot. So far we have seen two Thanos robots who have fooled those they came in contact with. Darkseid may have to play a where's Thanos kind of game to locate where the real one even is.