Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
posts 1, 2, 3 (stupid image limit=a waste of a lot of posts....)
okey dokey, let's get this party started shall we...
so, what do we have? if you think about it, i think you'll probably come to the same conclusion that i came to--we have magneto vs a very powerful telepath/telekine. really, as powerful as cable is, that is, in many ways, what magneto has made a career of facing. to say he would be familiar with cable's style of offense and defense would be an understatement. i'd like to start with discussing cable for a moment.
we have all seen the feats--rebuilding structures with his tk and breaking ss's board. we are aware of the fact that while he was doing those things, he was holding aloft an island that he had cobbled together and there is the belief that if the power utilized in holding the island were redirected, that he would become even more powerfull (a notion i actually question to a degree--if he was able to hold the island aloft while sleeping, how much effort was he expending? how much of his power did it actually consume?) imo, not much....) we know that he scanned the minds of everyone on the planet and that he 'ionized the atmosphere' of the planet while doing so. that list is about it. since there isn't a whole lot to go on, i'm going to be forced to try and find some analogues to make my case as to why i think magneto wins this battle.
let's start with the tk. to try and determine the extent of the impact cable's tk will have in this battle, let's take a look at how another fairly significant telekine has fared against magneto--namely PHOENIX:
now, before he says it, it's true jean was not at her 'universe saving levels', but she was still uber in that incarnation, certainly in the neighbourhood of high herald and her initial attack gave no sign of being in any way 'weak'. she caught him by surprise and still wasn't able to get through his shields with a combo of tk and tp. and she was po'd. this time, mags will not have already beat down all the x-men and will not be caught unawares.....
cable's tk is like any other tk, albeit better controlled and generally more impactful. but still, it is basically a physical manifestation of mental power. and as such, it will not be enough to penetrate magneto's shielding, the durability of which are practically legendary. i will show scans of the shields as necessary, but i think most know already that they are essentially impenetrable by physical or energy-based means and i don't see cable's tk as being able to break through them. again, more on the shields as necessary.
so, that leaves tp. this version of cable is very limited in his telepathic showings, his greatest tp feat being reading the minds of everyone on the planet and 'ionizing the atmosphere'. what does that even mean, exactly.....? it SOUNDS impressive as all hell, but really, what practical impact does it have on this match or on...anything?
again, i will try and look for an analogue for purposes of looking at how mags has done vs tp's in the past. we already saw phoenix was unable to defeat him via tp assault. but what about the man she was compared to--mags' nemesis, xavier?
first off, the whole 'reading the mind of everyone on the planet', while impressive, is not something that is unique to cable. sersi has done it easily in her run in the avengers, and the best she could do was stalemate exodus. xavier himself though, has done MUCH better:
Last edited by leonidas on Jun 9th, 2012 at 02:22 AM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
and of course xavier has ALSO scanned the minds of everyone on planet earth:
thanks to my men xmarks and ec.
he goes a step further and sifts through the minds to find what he likes and gathers the energy. a much greater feat than cable's. even in the god-cable arc, there was this brief exchange between cable and xavier:
charles agrees to respect the barriers, but in no way does he imply he couldn't get through them had he tried, nor does he seem in the least intimidated. even cable seemed more outraged than surprised to me.
so, i do not think it is inappropriate to look at his battles with prof x to get a handle on his ability to handle high level tp assault. so, how DOES he fare against the 'most powerful mind in the world'?
note too how even as he is battling xavier, he is using his magnetic powers simultaneously. that is just one feat. there are several others that, again, i will bring up as necessary. it is likely smurph will bring up the famous 'mind wipe' feat as proof that mags is vulnerable to psi attacks. bear in mind said event took place after a LENGTHY battle with a whole host of xmen, he was weakened by rogue, he was without his helmet and had been further weakened by bishop who had siphoned off mag's own energy and used it against him.....
none of those things are an issue here. oh, and there is no proof at all, no feats that would lead one to believe, that cable=xavier in terms of telepathy.... opinions aside, PROOF is what is called for here. prof x is a proven commodity and as powerful a tp as there is in marvel. we can't just assume cable is at that level, or even the level of phoenix, without definite proof.
Last edited by leonidas on Jun 9th, 2012 at 02:25 AM
and before anyone thinks i'm misrepresenting--i know that cortez was around at the time, but mags was also severely depowered at the same time and cortez was being used to get him back to his regular power levels. there is no proof he was amped beyond what he was later shown to be when he regained his full powers. in fact, the feats he performed during that arc are below MANY of his earlier and later feats.....
so, i've addressed cable's main offensive abilities--tk and tp--an tried to give some early reasons as to why i think neither would be enough to net cable a win over magneto.
now, what can mags do to cable? well, he can do what he has ALREADY done:
for all his new-found power, he is STILL largely metal and mags is STILL the master of it. he might try and say something about his healing factor helping him. thing is, he has no healing feats to gauge the actual effectiveness of his new healing factor to stave off injuries. we know it allowed his body to--temporarily--avoid the burn out he would have experienced without it. it was enough to buy him time to go about his 'jesus-like' tasks. but he never sustained injury and it was ALREADY being taxed to its limits. could it actually handle an assault of the kind i just showed?? i saw no evidence of that. i DO know he got a nosebleed shielding some missles though.... and i know that the first time he DID sustain a heavy injury--when ss effortlessly blasted off his arm (what of his shields??)--the hf did nothing and had reached a critical limit. in fact had already begun to FAIL him as cable suggests he didn't have much time left even BEFORE the ss attacked him.
again, like his tp, the hf lacks feats to support its usefulness in this match. i see no reason to think the hf could deal with the type of attack mags used to literally rip him apart. mags could also just use the iron in cable's blood to forcibly PULL the blood from his body. no blood, no healing. or shut off the flow of blood to his brain or perhaps simply cause a massive aneurysm or stroke, ala xorneto.
keep this fact in mind at all times--CABLE IS MADE OF VAST AMOUNTS OF METAL. for all his 'atomic levels of tk control', magneto himself has atomic levels of control and has feats that are themselves as impressive as nate's:
and those bots he assumed control of so easily, aside from being celestial tech, were powerful enough that one of them blew emma's diamond-form arm off...
all of these feats are staggering in scope and rival god-cable's greatest feats. they serve to illustrate just how powerful magneto truly is. despite his great power, cable has no way of by-passing mags' shields with his tk, he has no feats to back-up the level of his tp, or to prove it is at a level high enough to penetrate mag's layers of defense, and above all, he retains a massive area of vulnerability--a predominantly METAL-BASED body that magneto can manipulate in an almost endless variety of ways to destroy him.
in short, his greatest strengths are nothing mags hasn't seen and overcome, while his weakness is simply too massive a handicap for him, or his unproven healing factor, to overcome.
This is what I'm listening to as I write this post. Feel free to join me.
So Leo basically wants to drive home Magneto's long history of waging mental and physical warfare with Prof. X, hoping to draw an effective comparison between Charles and Cable, and thus establish Erik as being effectively defended against Nate's telepathy.
Let's let Leo draw that comparison and see how it shapes out.
In this first post I'm going to deconstruct a number of my opponent's points that I see as being particularly contentious. Next post, I'm going to bring in some new points of my own from the perspective: Cable is a motherf*cking rockstar.
The Telepathy Comparison
Charles Xavier vs. Erik's Willpower: Decent Match
Before I even jump into Cable's end of things, I want to bring the focus back to Erik's history with Professor X:
Firstly, I think it's fair to say that any way you cut it, the history of the two mutant leaders has victories on both sides.
Some instances, Magneto's willpower keeps control of his mind. On the other hand, we have Fatal Attractions
There was also that time that Xavier took mental control of Erik's powers and used them to throw Avalon into space.
I know Leo's already raised his defenses to these instances, primarily:
And hey, fair enough. It can be argued that due to Magneto's LONG and STRENUOUS battle against a handful of low to mid metas, that he was simply no match for a low herald telepath.
Which of course leads us to the question: How do you think he'll fair against a mind superior to Xavier's given that Cable actually held off the Silver Surfer without using any offensive telepathy?
I mean, if getting attacked by Bishop, Gambit and Cyclops is an arduous task for ol' Erik, how long do you think his mental shields will hold up when he's getting struck with enough force to hold up Providence, perform vast sub-atomic matter manipulation and break Surfer's board? Especially considering that he'll be faced with a mind that LOLs at Emma Frost equipped with Cerebra?
This leads me into my next point:
God Like Cable vs Charles Xavier: Spite Match
Leo wanted to draw a comparison between Charles and Nate, let's do it.
The crux of his argument is that Xavier has accessed bigger amounts of minds than Nate (Skrull feat) and done more with them (picking and choosing Earth minds feat), and so it can be submitted that perhaps he (Xavier) is a stronger telepath than Cable.
Obviously this argument rests on a couple things: God-Like Cable only appeared for a handful of issues, and so his feats, while impressive, are limited in their quantity.
While in his God-Like form, Cable:
Soothed the pain of every dying person around the globe constantly.
Telepathically ionized the atmosphere of the earth.
Telepathically monitored global conversations (those of GW. Bridge, Irene Merryweather, SHIELD, etc).
We never got to see the full extent of how far his telepathy can reach or how many minds it could access at once, and so we don't know if his range matches up to Xavier's star-spanning telepathic ability.
We do know that doing all these things took a minor fraction of Cable's power, that he was performing these tasks constantly and that he was doing it for days and weeks on end. Impressive, but not crucially important to this argument, which is why Leo's comparison is going to fall short.
Incidentally, for a short case comparison alone, Skrull feat vs. Cable's soothing-the-pain feat:
Xavier harnessed the emotions of 8 billion beings and fired it in a beam at Galactus, who was (iirc) completely unfazed.
Cable sifted through the emotions and pain of 6.8 billion beings, seeking out the ones that were dying and soothed them of all pain for weeks.
Feats aren't entirely incomparable.
Like I said though, none of this is going to decide who's the superior telepath. Range and span of telepathic reach isn't going to win a battlezone, and we've seen the history of Xavier vs. Erik to know well enough how Charles fairs in a head to head match.
Let's give Cable the same treatment, yeah?
Leo would like us to believe that Xavier could easily pierce Cable's telepathic shielding. Well, this is baloney for two reasons. Firstly, Magneto doesn't have telepathy, so, you know, who gives two shits about Cable's telepathic shielding? Secondly, Leo and I are both aware that that feat occurred before Cable got Deadpool's healing factor, and so before he ascended to God-Like form.
For a direct comparison, directly prior to
Cable was exhausted by going about his days work and then extracting a deadly virus from some bodies (hence Charles' worrying about the effect of all this power on his body).
After getting that healing factor, Cable was able to dedicate his focus to controlling the virus globally.
Anyways, now that it's clear that we lack a direct comparison between Cable and Charles, we have to go to the next-most direct comparison available.
In this case, Cable vs. Emma Frost
Emma, I think we can all agree, is one clear notch below Charles. She has her own feats of global telepathy, and she's matched and outperformed Exodus telepathically (who in turn has stalemated Sersi. Leo brought up a comparison between Sersi and Cable in his post and this should neatly put that to rest as well).
Emma with Cerebra, then, should be beyond Charles I would think.
The kicker? Cable wasn't probing for the X-Men. He didn't even realize that Emma was near Providence or attempting to shield the group psychically.
Emma comments that as Cable casually looks into the minds of the entire planet, she (with Cerebra at her disposal) can barely shield the thoughts of her team.
I submit that Cable is during his time on earth as a God, Cable was an astoundingly superior telepath to anybody else on the planet. Without actually attempting to do anything, his telepathic presence nearly shattered the shields of Emma Frost, one of the top five telepaths on Marvel Earth.
I submit further that Magneto has never gone up against a telepath of this caliber. Leo mentioned Jean Grey as 'Phoenix', but it's certainly a little misleading to call that incarnation of Jean 'Phoenix'. She was at a loss for her real power, which is why she lacks telepathic feats and which is why she was getting power-trumped by Magneto.
Leo knows what this match rests on. I know what this match rests on. The judges know what this match rests on. It's all about telepathy. We have on-panel proof that Magneto's mental defenses are far from impregnable, and we know that should they be penetrated, that's game over for Erik.
Finally, one last point for this post. I've brushed over this, but not paid it the attention I feel is due:
Leo mentions that while Erik may have succumbed to the telepathic attack of Professor X, it was only after a lengthy battle with a bunch of low tier X-Men.
This is true, and a fair point to raise.
Erik was tired after a match with the X-Men, and his willpower fell short.
God-Like Cable spent his entire career as a character soothing the pain of the entire planet. He telekinetically levitated his utopian island, even while sleeping. He mentally probed the minds of the entire planet.
He rerouted enough water to flood half the Sahara. Kicked loggers out of the rainforests. Stopped the white blood count deterioration of every AIDS victim in Africa. Straightened the leaning tower of Pisa.
On a daily basis he stopped 14 individual acts of terrorism, 1100 attempts of murder, 7 thousand car accidents.
Magneto was tired after a battle with the X-Men. Cable spent his career doing that every single day, and then went head to head with the Silver Surfer.
without any effort, magneto prevented the entire team--jean and xavier among them--from accessing their power. he did this in passing. note, too, his dialogue at top of the page: "My near discorporation... has left me more powerful than even i imagined!"
powerful enough to bring avalon down into earth's atmosphere (and in doing so cause global havoc in the way of storms and upheavals) and hold it all together with his WILL POWER!
so, he managed to not only depower all the x-men (again, including xavier himself) but he ALSO did so, all the while keeping avalon together--while it was on earth AND in orbit!!-- with his power and will!!
eat your heart out providence!
more multi-tasking as we see he also managed to kill senyaka while the x-men were depowered...
so, back to my original reason for looking at fatal attraction--smurph's bringing up the usurpation of his power by xavier and the famous mind-wipe. if you noticed in that first scan, bishop mentions that his power works INVOLUNTARILY. as such, as mags engages in the stereotypical villain speech, bishop was busy draining mags' power until, involuntarily.....
notice too, that the blast was from BEHIND and it seems to hit him DIRECTLY--ie, he doesn't seem to have his shield up... and please recall--he is still keeping avalon aloft and together through all of this....
after all that, and while still keeping avalon together, THEN charles was able to enter magneto's mind and use magneto's power to actually HURL AVALON INTO SPACE!
couple things of note in the above scan--it took a combined jean/xavier to even try and enter his mind, and they were UNABLE to do so, UNTIL gambit's attack.... (note--xavier was weaker than normal because he was expending psi energy to work his exoskeleton...)
oddly enough, like bishop's attack, gambit's cards seem to actually STRIKE magneto's face. it is because of that distraction that jean/xavier can finally enter his mind. even then he tries fighting, but they use his fears and doubts against him and THAT is why their assault is successful.
throughout the conclusion, it is hammered home that magneto is doubting himself, discouraged by the constant betrayals. his mind is weak and vulnerable BECAUSE of that plot point. he is so torn by his position, that even when he faces a ready-to-kill logan, he HOLDS BACK and HESITATES:
so distracted is magneto, that logan's claws actually strike his body tearing open his armor and seriously injuring magneto. enraged, he goes on to rip the adamantium from logan, and it's after that that xavier--already having a foothold in his mind--performs his mindwipe. note too, that when he does, magneto no longer wears his helmet....
so. yeah. to reiterate: context-- it's our friend.
hmm, wonder why he didn't bother with it....?
ewww......don't think so.....
reading minds globally is not a big deal. ionized the atmosphere means....what exactly? what is it's practical use? and if he's reading minds globally, following discussions is a natural corollary. soothing pain (and when he did this is it was his SOLE/ONLY focus) seems more a feat of tk than tp, but either way, pretty impressive. no more so than some of mags' feats, but still, a great feat.
correct. and that lack of feats makes your stance regarding cable/xavier unsupportable.
the only reason i brought it up was to illustrate that it seemed xavier could have penetrated cable's mind had he really tried. that speaks directly to their comparative power levels. i'm also not convinced that his actual POWER LEVELS were increased by the hf. it's important to know he had ALREADY reached godhood. he simply lacked the endurance to USE his power the way he wanted to. the power to read minds globally and do everything else was ALREADY there when he spoke to xavier--he simply couldn't DO all the things because he grew tired and burned out. i guess i'm saying the hf allowed him greater SCOPE with his powers, as opposed to DEPTH.
one would THINK.....
WOW! that IS awesome. but he WAS stopped, a couple times, by cerebra. imagine how powerful one has to be actually ENTER the mind of someone using cerebra.....?!
one would think....
Last edited by leonidas on Jun 14th, 2012 at 10:07 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
hmm, i have an issue with this line of thought. he WAS scanning the minds of everyone, but, it does not necessarily follow that if he redirected that scattered tp and focused it, that he would be this uber-unstoppable force! the proof is clear: xavier and emma and sersi. ALL have exhibited global levels of tp, and yet, when they gather and focus we have SEEN their feats. imagine for a second if all you saw was a single scan of xavier sifting through all the minds on the planet, picking and choosing who he wants to use--skip it, read the scan:
actively chooses people only of goodwill and focuses all the consciousnesses into ONE. at LEAST as impressive as soothing the dying..... anyway, point is, if THAT was the only scan you ever saw of xavier, you would say, "OMGZZ! IMAGINE IF HE FOCUSED ALL HIS POWER ON TRYING TO GET INTO JUST ONE!!"
but we know that SCOPE does not translate necessarily into DEPTH--or at least it does not do so via any direct correlation.
iow--just becasue cable could read minds and sooth the dying of the world, does NOT mean he is beyond xavier.
i submit YOU MAD!
okay, so, let's go back to smurph's direct comparison wherein he used emma with cerebra as a measure of cable's tp power. recall cerebra DID block him, and recall too there is no reason to believe that had he tried to focus his tp, he would have been able to break through cerebra's shielding. that reasoning is faulty for reasons i outlined above. but.... smurph DID make a big deal about cerebra, so, let's run with that.
it's likely we've all seen this famous feat of cassandra nova:
damnation!! that IS impressive. cassie was a beast, no doubt about it. now, you're probably wondering--leo, what the hell are you doing showing a scan of cassandra nova pwning a cerebra amped xavier??
well, glad you asked. heh
cassie took over xavier's body and was doing all kinds of bad things with it. after a lengthy arc(s), xavier's mind ended up residing in jean for a time--a jean who was once again manifesting PHOENIX powers. cassie's goal was to get to cerebra and use it to contact the minds of all mutants in the world so she could...do bad things to them and with them. but jean has a plan. let's see what happens, and just how cassie met her end....
seriously. think about what happened there. not only was charles' mind too much for phoenix (or ANYONE) to hold, it survived being shattered and placed separately in the minds of every mutant in the world! as if that alone wasn't enough, once it was reconstituted, CHARLES WAS ABLE TO GET INTO THE MIND OF CASSANDRA NOVA WHO WAS USING CEREBRA AND REGAIN HIS BODY! (hope everyone read that last part carefully......)
and you heard what smurph said about cerebra.... an absolutely ASTOUNDING FEAT......no matter how you slice it.
xavier ENTERING cassie's mind while she is using cerebra>>>>cable being BLOCKED by emma using cerebra
i do? not really. my point in drawing all these analogies with xavier is simple--xavier is freakin UBER. low herald? doubtful. high herald is a lot closer. hell, thanos even used a comatose prof to battle the goddess in the infinity crusade! it came down to xavier, thanos and warlock against the goddess. pretty good company..... charles is a PROVEN UBER TP, with hundreds of showings, and i showed that mags can resist even XAVIER! the times he fell were littered with context, and in the final showdown, he didn't even have his helmet! and THIS little OFFICIAL retcon only serves to STRENGTHEN mags' defenses further:
clear proof that, currently, his helmet DOES make him proof against psi's..... factor in the helmet, his will and the psi-inhibiting nature of his powers..... take cable's utterly UNPROVEN level of tp, and i see no reason at all to assume cable's tp will be a difference maker here.
so, again, his tk won't be enough to get through my shields, and his tp is unproven, and we've SEEN what it takes a PROVEN uber telepath (with far more and far GREATER displays of tp) to get through mags defenses.
ON TOP OF THAT: mags doesn't even HAVE to no-sell the tp--he only has to hold out long enough to use his powers to literally RIP cable to pieces! even if you feel cable CAN pierce all of mags' defenses, you THEN have to somehow justify that he can do so BEFORE mags can take control of his blood,block access to his powers, or rip his body apart. recall that while in direct mental combat with xavier, mags--WHILE BATTLING--ripped apart and controlled xavier's chair from hundreds of miles away! no reason at all to suppose that IF cable were somehow able to get into mags' mind (a conclusion that lacks support to reach) that he STILL couldn't hold cable off long enough to UTTERLY **** up his metallic body or blood. the virus in cable makes him even MORE susceptible to mags's control.
TO SUM UP
--mags' mental defenses (including his recently shown psi-proof helmet) are too great for cable to penetrate, or at least to penetrate easily. mags would have LOTS of time to both fend off the assault and destroy cable's body, take control of him via his blood, use his blood to prevent him from accessing his powers, or simply pull all the blood (and thereby his hf) out of his body. CABLE HAS A MASSIVE VULNERABILITY BEING MADE OF METAL. this gives mags a QUICK way to win this battle. cable HAS no 'quick' way, or really any proven way to win this match. and please don't forget that scan i showed in my first post:
mags absolutely NO SELLS emma, another global tp. when he focuses, his shields appear to be absolutely impregnable--physically and psionically.
--mags' shields render cable's tk useless
--the battlefield is GREATLY suited to mags, as the dust of the moon is heavily loaded with iron and it can be used to coat his tk shields to blind cable. the mantle below the crust is ALSO heavy with iron. easily manipulated. mags could literally open a volcano under cable (as he has done on panel). this could distract him, and again allow mags the chance to destroy his body.
--what if mags became completely invisible and undetectable? since cable can't get through his mental defenses, an invisible magneto could take his time and do....whatever he wanted to do to cable. this also highlights the power of his shields:
thanks again ec!
--or perhaps magneto opens a wormhole BEHIND cable then uses the iron-rich dust of the moon to makea huge hand and simply swats him through it. the other end of the wormhole could open in the CORE OF THE MOON (i like that one... heh)
--fact is, mags has LOADS of options in this battle and cable has next to none. you heard smurph--it's tp or bust for him. not a great option when your boy has next to no tp feats..... in contrast, mags has TONS of available options and cable has a weakness that all his power can't hide or lessen.
Last edited by leonidas on Jun 14th, 2012 at 10:16 PM